Thermal pad involving vias

So exactly as I have assumed in: “If thermal pad is 0.1mm over PCB”.

We are in agreement with everything that you wrote up to here …

There was a misunderstanding about the terminology “thermal pad” - I thought that you were referring to that which was being laid out on the surface of the PCB (i.e., the footprint under discussion),
whereas I now understand that you were talking about the metal tab on the bottom of the IC.

@Douglas777

So if a 0.2mm thick stencil is used with 50% of the thermal paste area being covered by solder paste, in theory either the IC would float up to be 0.2mm above the copper or the solder would flow over the solder mask (which it would be reluctant to do) or into the vias!

@Piotr
No. You have to not understand something basic.
You have 100% thermal pad size.
You covered 50% of it with 0.2mm paste. So in average you covered thermal pad with 0.1mm of paste.
If distance between IC thermal pad and copper thermal pad is 0.1mm then everything matches and there is no too much paste to flow anywhere.

Your interpretation assumes that the solder will flow equally wherever, even over areas of solder mask.
I am not sure that such an assumption is valid.
The solder will flow according to the principle of ‘least resistance to the flow’ - whatever that may involve?!

In my example, 50% has solder mask which the solder would presumably have some difficulty in spreading across and getting into the vias (that is a specific design objective).
So, more likely the excess of solder would either lift the IC (thereby impacting on soldering of the 28 pins) or spread out to the sides? (Or maybe some could jump the solder mask and get into the vias?)

If, in contrast, the solder paste is only 0.1mm thick, then regardless of the percentage area covered by the paste ‘everything matches’ - assuming that the solder doesn’t flow away from the defined areas of the solder pads - which is the intention according to the grand plan!

I need to ponder further on the remainder of your comments relating to “pads can be ‘mask defined’” and also those of @eelik
I admit to being confused by many aspects of the Kicad possibilities and how footprints are specified in Kicad …

I just used Google translator and assumed that the form I got is the English substitute for my a bit of a joke sentence.
I wanted to say: "And… you put here a mess in this conversation :slight_smile: " but in a very short form (in Polish: “I namieszałeś.”

This is a simplification, but it is close to the truth. The surface tension will melt it all over the thermal pad.

No.
But I found what you don’t understand. Copper covered by mask is certainly not a pad area anymore.
If you have a bigger copper rectangle and on it a smaller rectangle opening in mask then you have ‘mask defined’ pad. The pad size is defined by mask = pad is the opening in mask and not the whole copper rectangle under it.
So if I write “you have 100% thermal pad size” that means only copper not covered by mask. And specifying that you have 50% opening in stencil it is 50% of those 100% copper not masked and not the whole copper if some of it is covered by mask.

If you covered 50% of copper with mask you have pad 50% smaller. So 50% in stencil will be 25% of what you count as a pad (what will be 50% of real pad).
If you want to name copper covered by mask a pad then all tracks at your PCB are pads. It leads to absurdity.

You should do it at once and not in some time in the future because it will be difficult to understand each other.

Well, this is a good example of why this whole discussion is difficult. There are component pads, there are copper pads, then there are KiCad pads which aren’t neither… It’s surprising how confusing the terminology may be if you go to details and try to talk about many things at once. Take a look at this: Land Patterns vs. Footprints: What’s the Difference?. So, what is a “footprint” of KiCad? It’s actually a land pattern plus something else, but not a footprint of a component.

What you call “pad” is a land pattern copper area where a component lead/pad is attached to, but when we talk about pads in KiCad we mean a technical drawing implemented in a certain way and defined with a certain user interface and having a layer/layers where each layer may have an area of different size.

I think I’ll stop now and leave Douglas to ponder these things. Otherwise we both go crazy.

I’m in my phone, so it’s hard to read and respond to everything, but one thing I saw needs to be addressed.

Under no circumstances should you have solder mask under the thermal pad of the IC.

The shape/size of the pad and location of vias are all a separate issue, but make the pad free from solder mask.

@3Dogs wrote:
Under no circumstances should you have solder mask under the thermal pad of the IC.

One of the starting points of this thread was consideration of the paper by Kelly et al. which proposes a “New Option 6: SMD Windows”.
This and the “five primary design options have been recommended by IPC-7093 and component supplier guides” are illustrated in their figure 6.
The caption to that figure defines green as being “solder mask”.
Of these, methods 3, 5 and 6 involve solder mask.
(Via tenting (option 2) also involves solder mask - in that case covering the via holes)

Looking at, for example, option 3 it involves solder mask covering the majority of the area.

I did a quick google for “Encroached vias” …

PCB Vias - Everything You Need To Know.
PCB Vias - Everything You Need To Know - Epec’s Blog
Encroached vias have solder mask over most of the pad but the mask stops short of the hole by a few thousandths of an inch.
This is a good compromise on medium-density PCBs between a full plug and doing nothing at all.

I have yet to read this article or become a fan of such vias … I am simply citing it to demonstrate that solder mask under the thermal pad may not be a “no go” as you are telling us.

What is the rationale or information source on which you base the claim that “under no circumstances should you have solder mask under the thermal pad of the IC”?

I shall continue to study literature and the details of how footprints are implemented in Kicad during today.
Up until now I have used Fusion 360 to model some possibilities - that has the benefit of assisting in understanding of basic principles without getting confused by Kicad implementation details.

I now need to understand aspects such as “pads can be ‘mask defined’”, the “Pad properties” and “Board settings” mentioned by @eelik, i.e., how to implement footprint details in Kicad.

A 40s search on the magic net coughs up the site below which explains this quite nicely.

Thanks for this link.

The difference can be understood as being whether there is a positive or negative overlap of the solder mask relative to the copper.

I understand the distinction but have little idea how to implement in Kicad!

Are there particular examples of implementation of each type in standard Kicad footprints that I can usefully study?

Apparently there’s already too much information in this thread, because I told in a previous post how to find more about (Non) Solder Mask Defined, and I gave a link to a FAQ post which tells how to create a SMD style pad in KiCad. Please read carefully.

I can attach and analyze a footprint later. I don’t know if KiCad libraries have Solder Mask Defined footprints.

Here’s some more information: Solder Mask Smaller than Pad

Here’s the current datasheet for TI CSD13383F4: https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/csd13383f4.pdf?ts=1657960373244&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fpower-management%2Fmosfets%2Fn-channel-transistors%2Fproducts.html, and here’s their technical document for the FemtoFET packages: https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/slra003d/slra003d.pdf?ts=1657960694232.

See how the recommendation is to use SMD style instead of NSMD. And interestingly the paste stencil openings are offset from the land pattern. There would be much to analyze in this, and even more if you want to use this in manual assembly (yes, it’s possible! But I had to modify the footprint for that) or use cheap and not so advanced manufacturer.

Here’s the final footprint:
TI_MOSFET_F4YJC_0402_FEMTO.kicad_mod (2.7 KB)

Yes, I am suffering from information and ideas overload :frowning:

Regarding the thermal pad, I am not sure if the subject of Copper Defined Pads vs. Soldermask Defined Pads has much relevance.

The thermal pad starts as a simple rectangle of copper on the PCB.
Overlaid on top of that are the vias, either with or without solder mask surrounds.

Without solder mask surrounds is what Kelly et al. describe as “Option 1: Open copper”.
In this case, solder paste blobs are being laid onto the open copper. Nothing defines the paste blob size other than the geometry of the solder blob (the stencil cut out).
So neither NSMD or SMD applies - since there is no solder paste, whilst the copper layer is continuous!

With solder mask surrounds of the vias is what Kelly et al. describe as “Option 6: SMD Windows”.
So, yes, they could be considered as being SMD solder paste blobs - but since the solder paste is sitting on top of the overall thermal pad, the subject of overlaps only arises at the edge of the thermal pad.
Then, whether of not there is a positive or negative overlap of the solder mask relative to the copper arises.

My Fusion 360 model was only considering what was happening within the thermal pad.
I didn’t consider solder mask at the edges - so the subject of NSMD or SMD seems to not apply.

If (as I was proposing to do), I offset the solder paste from the edges, that is achieved by having a positive overlap of the solder mask at the edges to cover a little of the edge.
Then we have an SMD-type pad edge.

This provides clearer drawings to illustrate the difference between NSMD and SMD pads, whereas the link provided by @paulvdh covers the pros and cons of each.
Whether a pad is of NSMD or SMD type clearly applies to the 28 pins of the IC - but my understanding is that such terminologies are of little or no relevance to the thermal pad, other than how the solder mask may or may not overlap the copper pad at its perimeter edges.

These TI documents (which I have yet to study in detail) reinforce my impression that the terminology of NSMD or SMD is only of relevance at the edges of copper pads.

It seems fruitless to consider what type of definition terminology to use for a solder paste blob sitting within a copper surface, the edges of the blob being defined by solder mask/ the stencil.
For such, only SMD can apply.

Only at the perimeter of the copper pads are the alternatives of NSMD or SMD available, depending on whether there is a positive or negative overlap of the paste relative to the edge of the copper.

In what regard is this whole thing relevant to what you are doing?
KiCad’s default footprints are fine for most general work. Have you actually encountered some problem that you need to fix? Just because some Kelly guy somewhere on the 'net has a proposal for some complicated thermal pad design does not mean you have to implement or even read it.

Same for those (Non-) Solder mask defined pads. It’s good to know those solder mask pads exist, but I’ve never used them myself, as far as I know they are used in some “special cases” but I don’t really know (nor care) what those situations are. So why spend (much) time and effort on the topic at all?

It is.


NSMD the resist is wider than the pad: the usable area is NOT defined by the solder mask - provides edge adhesion.
SMD is where the resist is smaller than the pd: The usable area IS defined by the solder mask

I suffer from a curious nature, with the desire/ need to investigate and properly understand subjects in detail … :frowning:

As written at the start of my original posting, I couldn’t find a footprint for the NXP PCA9955B display driver IC - at least one that was consistent with the NXP data sheet.
Those that I did find had different sizes of thermal pad and also some other dimensional discrepancies.
Furthermore, the available footprints had no thermal vias.

It is good to have a reasonably in-depth understanding of a subject, which often results in additional spin-off benefits.
For example, I now have an understanding that stencils can be ordered in a range of different thicknesses and some sort of idea of the considerations that should apply in selection of the most appropriate stencil.

Although there is a huge volume of resources relating to Kicad on the 'net, what seems to be lacking is adequate documentation of even the basics.

YouTube videos may describe how to implement a simple footprint and answers to any or all questions are no doubt possible to find with considerable effort across the large number of videos or forum postings

  • but a clear definitive explanation of, for example, how to design a footprint involving a thermal pad with vias seems to be missing (or at least not easy to find!).

This thread will hopefully address some of the issues - but clearly not all.
Then in a few weeks someone else will have similar queries but may or may not find this thread.
The result is a lot of threads involving a lot of repetition but also potentially conflicting advice and leading to general confusion … a rather wasteful process compared to there being fundamental documentation defining recommended procedures and the underlying assumptions on which they are based (such as referenced/ generally considered good practices).

Apart from the mentioned resources, the other option is to examine standard components in the Kicad libraries and try to ‘reverse-engineer’ the thought processes behind details of the particular implementations.

I am at home with Win7 and KiCad 5.1.12. Hope V6 is the same.
When editing pad properties in “Local Clearance and Settings” tab you have “Solder mask clearance”.
Try entering negative value there.

I’m not sure but probably I used once just because in datasheet they draw it that way and said it is recommended (don’t know why). It would took me some time to check which footprint it can be and I have not them here (at home).

I think there are benefits for very small pads, for example in the TI footprints the mask opening is 0.25 x 0.15 mm; not really for hobbyist designs or even most professional designs unless you need a very small form factor. The most important benefit is that the pad (land pattern) size is always the same and the registration error of the mask doesn’t matter as long as it’s smaller than the negative clearance between the mask edge and the copper edge. For a small pad the difference in attached trace width matters: the percentage of the change in the bare copper area is considerable and the effective pad location changes when the trace occupies the clearance area in a small non solder mask defined pad.

But the one I think I remember was the thermal pad - no tracks going out of it (other pads at all 4 sides).
May be in case of very small devices distance between thermal pad and other pads is so small that if you try to make thermal pad not mask defined then (assuming minimal mask offset and minimal mask width due to tolerances) you will get no mask between thermal pad and others what can lead to shorts. So the only possibility is to make that thermal pad mask defined.

AN2467 seems to provide a definitive guide to the subject, at least as recommended by NXP.
It benefits from clear graphics (unlike documents on the subject from other IC manufacturers).

I am busy studying the details from pages 7 to 17 in particular which seem to cover all the topics of this thread …

1 Like

Based on a quick review of AN2467, my general impressions/ understanding are as follows:

Kelly et al.'s “Option 6: SMD Windows” seems to be the same as page 11 of AN2467 which states:
“The land array can be created either by segmentation of a full copper area by solder mask openings, …” (left illustration in figure 16).
Vias being placed as in the right hand illustration of figure 24, page 17.

My Fusion 360 model was based on this approach (although I didn’t as-yet define the edge of the overall thermal pad using a solder mask).

Of course, this is only one of many possible variants as covered by AN2467 and is not necessarily the ‘best’ (which would be application specific and influenced by production techniques - so there is no such thing as ‘the best’!).
At least this document validate’s Kelly’s approach as being of mainstream applicability rather than being only of academic interest.
It is only a little more complicated than any of the other approaches.

The main drawback of this “Option 6 …” may be that the solder mask needs to be at least 0.2mm wide (JLCPCB “solder bridge” specification).
In contrast, copper can be 0.127 or 0.09mm apart (JLCPCB “pad to pad clearance”) - that is the same as JLCPCB “Minimum trace width and spacing” for a 2-year board, whilst for a 4-6 layer board
the minimum spacing can be 0.09 mm. (The presence of via holes also needs to be considered since there are other specs to think about …)
So the solder paste area could be less than for other approaches - not necessarily a bad thing as long as the paste thickness is adequate.
Actually, on page 11, NXP state that “distance between lands should be 0.4mm”.
On pages 14 and 15 they show the distance as being 0.2 to 0.4mm.

An attractive feature of the “Option 6 …” is that the vias are located outwith the areas where the solder paste is applied.
If desired, the solder mask could be easily extended to provide tented vias, i.e., mask being over the vias.

Looking back at the Kicad library example I have been looking at:
VQFN-28-1EP_4x5mm_P0.5mm_EP2.55x3.55mm_ThermalVias

Interestingly, this Kicad example doesn’t seem to come within the coverage of any of the recommended alternatives in the 51-page NXP document!

AN2467 page 14: (alternative to the solder mask defined)
the exposed pad solder land can be split up into a pad array of single Cu pads as shown below in Figure 22 (the so-called copper-defined or NSMD approach, as in the caption to that figure).

In contrast, the Kicad example uses one large, non-segmented copper pad.
Only F.Paste and F.Mask are enabled in the following to make it easier to understand what is going on.

F.mask seems to be a single large rectangle of the thermal pad size.
Being the negative, that will result in the overall thermal pad sized copper of the PCB being fully exposed.
F.paste consists of 6 blobs of solder paste sitting on that continuous surface of copper.
Since the segments are not ‘copper-defined’ but only segmented in the sense of several solder blobs being deposited, there are differences in how the solder will flow (i.e., presumably in a less well defined way).
Gaps between multiple segmented small copper pads with bare PCB material between them would tend to keep the solder within the solder blob (stencil rounded rectangle) areas.
This aspect appears to make the associated question as to whether or not vias should be tented of increased relevance.

AN2467 page 17:
For copper defined array pad design option, it is recommended to place the thermal via in the center of the pad, as show in below Figure 25.
The via must be plugged, tented or plated.

Kicad is certainly not using SMD for the segmented pad and, as discussed, is neither using N-SMD (so-called ‘copper defined’) so it is generally undefined here in AN2467 where the Kicad vias should best be placed.
In the Kicad example, the vias are generally located outside of the solder paste blobs although the vias at the corners are located within the blobs.
The NXP ‘rule’ that the via must be plugged, tented or plated (at least for other than their SMD example) appears to be broken in the Kicad example.

Of course, it is easy and involves no cost to tent a via on its upper surface.

I don’t know if this is a typical example of a Kicad library footprint involving a thermal pad with vias or if I should be looking at a better example that is more consistent with, e.g., the NXP ‘rules’/ guidance?

A further question:
Is the stencil manufactured based exactly on F.Paste?
Are there any Kicad parameters that transform F.Paste to stencil definition (via offsets or whatever)?
Do PCB manufacturers such as JLCPCB themselves apply offsets to the F.Paste data in the process of producing a stencil?

I have use unplugged vias in pads, but do go for a 0.3mm hole to reduce solder theft