Hi, I"m new here.
Long time Eagle user, after many years using Autocad (with Autopads).
Someone suggested I try KiCad.
I have tried it and the way the y-axis is oriented is a total deterrent for me. I have read some posts reagarding this and I don’t think a proper fix has been brought to the table.
Some of the arguments (references to pixels and text) sem to me like bad excuses for a blatant ignorance of mechanical design and PCB manufacturing rules.This argument does not stand against Excellon and Gerber, that both use y-axis up. Very often I cross the coordinates in Eagle, Autocad and Excellon, KiCad makes that tedious and ineffective.
From the various posts I read I believe I’m not the only one. It’s too bad since it’s a nice project that’s crippled from the start for lack of professional expertise.
You will get used to it.
However, changing (visible) coordinate system is under work and should soon be avaible for 5.99 unstable development version and later 6.0.
I seriously doubt it. I won’t change my 50+ years work habits in order to conform to isolated idiosyncracies.
Then I may reconsider. Anyway, this person that suggested I tried KiCad implied it would be so much better than Eagle; actually I don’t see any possible improvement of my particular workflow.
I faced the same problem when I came to Kicad (and, I arrived on planet earth in the late 1940’s… thus, old-school). It took only a very short time getting used to the switch in Axis orientation.
What helped me was discovering:
• Pressing Spacebar sets the Delta-Position to 0,0 (info readout at bottom right of Display panel, sets it to the Cursor’s location). Most helpful and can do it whenever/wherever needed.
• Setting the Auxillary Origin to where I want it (usually at lower Left of my PCB Shape (also setting Grid Origin to same spot).
• Knowing Kicad’s Origin (for PCB) is set at Upper-Left of PCB display page.
Fool with it a bit and 10 minutes later, you’re a Master at it…
So, can I ask you, what is forcing you to change 50+years of work habits? I ALWAYS advise people like you here with that attitude to complain to the guy with the gun to your head forcing you to use KiCAD but remember KiCAD is one of the best OPEN SOURCE CAD packages around & is written & supported by a team of volunteers!
I have no gun to my head, so I’ll pass. I’m pretty happy with Eagle. I just think it’s too bad that such a nice project is ruined by the strange choices made at the beginning.
For me, the fact that it’s free is not enough to convert me, that’s all. If you think I’m looking at the teeth of a given horse, you may be right. I think that if I persisted in using KiCad as it is, it would be counterproductive. Call me ungrateful but IMO, volunteering is no substitute for expertise.
What helped me was discovering:
• Pressing Spacebar sets the Delta-Position to 0,0 (info readout at bottom right of Display panel, sets it to the Cursor’s location). Most helpful and can do it whenever/wherever needed.
• Setting the Auxillary Origin to where I want it (usually at lower Left of my PCB Shape (also setting Grid Origin to same spot).
• Knowing Kicad’s Origin (for PCB) is set at Upper-Left of PCB display page.[/quote] I undrestand all this very well. That is exactly the reason I’ve never used the UCS in Autocad.
Thanks for your answer anyway.
The choice of the tool is always personal (or corporational). I don’t believe the Openness or Freeness of software is the only the which should be considered, and even less the monetary price. Personally I strongly favor FLOSS if at all possible, but I understand well if someone chooses something else and wants to pay for it. Or chooses a free but not Free alternative. Welcome back after 6.0 has been released, let’s see if it has the user choice for the coordinate system and if it satisfies you.
(BTW, there’s something wrong with your quote tags, they don’t appear as quotes and are difficult to read.)
I just enter the html tags, as I do on several other forums. Actually, I copy the [/quote] tag and edit it. I may have slipped once.
Not related…
…I hear ya and understand.
Eight yrs ago I had 6 Harleys, all with Carburators. I bought a new Harley trike because my knees went south. I didn’t want Fuel Injection and planned to convert the trike to Carburation but was lazy.
After two months of laziness, I fell in love with Injection and sold all my other bikes. I notice all my Harley buddies no longer have carburators… LOL
I will not call you ungrateful because open source in general and kicad project in particular is not about gratitude.
But you are uninformed if you think that just because open source contributors are often volunteers they are not experts. Or if you think that people behind all the marketing bullshit and fancy sounding PR of paid products are any more experts.
Your argument boils down to “this group made a choice about this arbitrary thing that doesn’t align with what I’m used to, which means they are wrong”. Sure you can bring forth a bunch of arguments about why that choice is not really arbitrary and your way is the right way, same as I can bring a bunch of arguments for the opposite. The topic has been discussed to death already.
And I’m glad someone has finally taken it upon themselves to contribute an option to invert the damn axis for people who like it that way. And that’s the power of open source.
Makes no sense to me to join the forum just to say you won’t use the software. Why not just move on?
Well, wasn’t it worth asking? At least the original poster was informed that such a feature is coming.
But yes, some people have uninformed opinions about Open Source and commercial software. Some of the developers in the FLOSS world are one the brightest minds in the field of computing and programming. So are some in the commercial world. Some people are inside both worlds at the same time. The same can be said of the less bright minds. The quality in the FLOSS world is as diverse as in the commercial world.
One of the undeniable benefits of FLOSS is that you actually can know what you get. That’s true with regards to the code and the people behind it as well as the end product. In the commercial world you usually know only the end product and the facade of the company and their promises. The quality of the process, code and the people may be whatever.
One misunderstanding is that you get what you pay for. That’s not true. If you pay $1000 per year for a software licence you won’t get unlimeted or limited number of wishes which they fullfill when they plan their next features. You are at their mercy along with the other customers. You get what you pay for only if you pay for coding a certain feature. That’s possible with KiCad, BTW – you actually can pay for a feature.
If all those people who have declined to use KiCad because of wrong coordinate system would have paid less than a yearly cost of a commercial EDA to get it, it would have been done and published already.
I still don’t blame the original poster and I encourage them to choose what suits best for them. If it’s Eagle because it’s familiar and easy, then good. I hope that v6.0 draws more and more “customers” to KiCad because it will be better.
Special thanks to @RRPollack who has worked to make the wanted feature happen; we hope it will be ready soon.
So the circle is unbroken… What about living on an island, where any idea from abroad is rejected?
At least other answers show there is an understanding of the problem.
[quote=“eelik, post:13, topic:24211”]
Well, wasn’t it worth asking? At least the original poster was informed that such a feature is coming.[/quote] Thank you for your positive attitude.
[quote] Some of the developers in the FLOSS world are one the brightest minds in the field of computing and programming.[/quote] I’m very much aware of this. And that’s often the issue. Anytime I’d take a program written by not-so-brilliant coders but experts in their field against a well-written program done by people who are not so good at the core. And that’s what I see in KiCad. Not respecting the long-established drafting and PCB design conventions in favour of typically IT-related ones is a sign.
[quote] One of the undeniable benefits of FLOSS is that you actually can know what you get. [/quote] One of the problems with FLOSS is that, since it’s initiated by good-willed people, it’s hard to tell them they are wrong, and when one complains, the answer is often don’t complain because the volunteers may be irritated and leave the boat.
[quote] One misunderstanding is that you get what you pay for. That’s not true. If you pay $1000 per year for a software licence you won’t get unlimeted or limited number of wishes which they fullfill when they plan their next features. You are at their mercy along with the other customers. [/quote] Commercial software companies have to satisfy their customers. It’s happened many times that software companies went out because they lost their customer base.
[quote] You get what you pay for only if you pay for coding a certain feature. That’s possible with KiCad, BTW – you actually can pay for a feature.[/quote] that’s interesting. I have not seen that in any of the posts related to the subject. Now, is it acceptable to have to pay for fixing an inherent flaw?
[quote]If all those people who have declined to use KiCad because of wrong coordinate system would have paid less than a yearly cost of a commercial EDA to get it, it would have been done and published already. [/quote] Has anybody actually initiated such an endeavour?
[quote] I still don’t blame the original poster [/quote] Thank you for that!
[quote]I hope that v6.0 draws more and more “customers” to KiCad because it will be better.
[/quote] It seems like there are enough people that admit this “feature” as a hindrance and something needs be done about it.
I’ll wait for this v6.0.
[quote=“qu1ck, post:11, topic:24211”]
Your argument boils down to “this group made a choice about this arbitrary thing that doesn’t align with what I’m used to, which means they are wrong”. Sure you can bring forth a bunch of arguments about why that choice is not really arbitrary and your way is the right way, same as I can bring a bunch of arguments for the opposite.
[/quote]What I’m used to is what billions of people are used to. When I was taught algebra, the y-axis was up, when I studied drafting also, a Bode plot’s y-axis goes up, and when I read an Excellon or G-code file, the y-axis is always up. I have no doubt that y-axis down is wrong.
Yep. And british are wrong for driving on the left side of the road and lefties just haven’t been taught the right way to hold the pencil etc.
If you want to know why none of your arguments matter you can search the forum, you haven’t said anything new.
You are wrong about this. KiCad developers know PCB design. It’s just that they don’t feel the “wrong” axis direction is a hindrance for them. Most of the user get used to it, too.
Have you tried to tell a commercial company they are wrong? The only real difference between commercial and Open Source projects is that a company can lie to your face, acting like they are sorry and care. Behind the facade they may do what people in average do when they feel they know better (laugh at you etc.). Open Source developers usually can freely tell you what they think because they don’t have to care about loosing money. In any case most Open Source developers actually care about their products and their users. Not all workers in commercial companies do.
What to say about that? Volunteers don’t have to take anything. Paid workers must if they want to make their living. Both need to stand some heat if they want to enhance a product.
Yes, and with limited income they still can’t do it, even if they want. They can’t satisty you if you require something which is too costly for them. Open Source projects must also satisfy people. We know it, KiCad developers know it, and they work for it. It just happens that you have a requirement which hasn’t fitted in the overall development plan because of many reasons. Their reasons just are other than money.
You can pay to https://www.kipro-pcb.com/, run by a lead developer of KiCad.
Isn’t that what you may get when you pay for a commercial sofware? Which one of them don’t have any unfixed inherent flaws to start with?
As far as I can see there are two points in this discussion:
- You dislike the coordinate system so much that you can’t use KiCad even though most of the users who dislike it can live with it and don’t say it’s and “inherent flaw” or “lack of professional expertise” or something like that. I know some do, but most don’t.
- You clearly know nothing about the KiCad project or the developers. Spend a couple of months reading the bug database, all the wishes, comments and responses, and you would understand how clever and professional the developers actually are, how large and complex the software and the project are and how difficult it is to make right decisions, and how impossible it is to satisfy all users.
I don’t agree about everything with the developers, sometimes I say it aloud, I think the software is far from perfect, but at least my opinions are based on first hand knowledge, not on false assumptions about the project.
British cars are adequate for left-side driving, and there are many tools and utensils for lefties. If there was a left-handed or an Aussie (upside-down) version of KiCad, I would receive your argument.
For me, KiCad’s y-axis is adequate for a limited number of people, not the majority. KiCad devs have made a choice that restricts the appeal.
[quote=“eelik, post:18, topic:24211”]
Isn’t that what you may get when you pay for a commercial sofware? Which one of them don’t have any unfixed inherent flaws to start with? [/quote] “To start with”, yes. How long is it people are asking for a change?
[quote] As far as I can see there are two points in this discussion:
- You dislike the coordinate system so much that you can’t use KiCad even though most of the users who dislike it can live with it and don’t say it’s and “inherent flaw” or “lack of professional expertise” or something like that. I know some do, but most don’t. [/quote] I do, in the hope that it stirs some reaction.
[quote] 2. You clearly know nothing about the KiCad project or the developers. Spend a couple of months reading the bug database, all the wishes, comments and responses, and you would understand how clever and professional the developers actually are, how large and complex the software and the project are and how difficult it is to make right decisions, and how impossible it is to satisfy all users. [/quote] I admit I know nothing about the devs, but you don’t need to be a hen (or affiliated) to taste eggs.
[quote] I don’t agree about everything with the developers, sometimes I say it aloud, I think the software is far from perfect, but at least my opinions are based on first hand knowledge [/quote] I don’t doubt it.
[quote], not on false assumptions about the project.
[/quote] I don’t think I’m making false assumptions when I say that y-axis down is contrary to quasi-universal usage.