We’re working on two projects at the moment.
One is a small Supervising control panel for an Oxygen production facility.
The other is a control panel for a 3 axis drilling system.
We’re still in the part creation phase at the moment. Once it is done, we’ll post something.
Thanks!
By the way for system design there might be better tools than KiCad. A company would not use altium for this task but eplan so why should we in the open source world expect one tool to do both tasks.
Have a look at https://qelectrotech.org/ which looks like a good start as a replacement for the commercial tools. It is maybe not as advanced as one might want such a tool to be for productive use but definitely promising and most importantly focuses on the usecase you guys describe in this thread.
KiCad will never really be a full system design system. PCB design simply has different requirements. Just take wire junctions and labels as an example. On a PCB one does not typically care in which order stuff is connected while this is very crucial in system design systems which is why there are directional junctions and 1:1 cross-references in a tool like qelectrotech.
Thanks for the Info. I did not find these guys in my research. I will certainly look at this option.
I found Kicad while working on some electronic designs a while back. I liked the fact the project is well organised and the community very active.
From our testing, most of our needs are covered in KiCAD, or can be adapted with a little coding effort.
So lacking a better option, we went ahead and spent the energy to run our projects with it. And So far, we’re very happy.
Also, since we work on electronics as well as Control, a single platform should be less difficult to maintain in the long run.
As for the capacity to do a full 3D representation of components and the finished panel, qelectrotech does not seem to have that capacity, which KiCad does pretty well.
Following this thread. Was there ever a resource/github page dedicated to electrical component symbols?
I’m involved in developing switchboards for grow rooms. Am looking to use KiCAD for electrical layout.
Honestly, I would suggest posting to the dev mailing list or posting a issue in the kicad issue tracker outlining clearly what functionality is needed to complete perhaps a “electrical diagram” type mode. As someone who does both, the higher level type electronics wiring is not radically beyond scope of KiCad’s existing functionality like you say. It may just say require, a separate library management team for electronic diagraming because the current maintainers have months backlogs of ICs alone.
Shit, at work, we have one guy spend days drawing diagrams in OrCad, and that’s pretty effing painful.
As Rene said, there are probably better tools for electrical cabinets, but I will not spend time searching for them nor learning them.
I rarely make such a cabinet, (Did it twice until now) and just did it manually by putting all components on the back plate and marking mounting holes first with a felt tip pen, then a center punch and lastly drilling and tapping.
Using KiCad and my CNC machine the next time may be a step up, but learning new software for my occasional use would be too much effort for too small a return.
Drawing some custom footprints for DIN relay’s etc is also easily done. Measuring and drawing a Footprint for a contactor is probably easier for me then browsing though a big database with 10.000 contactors brands and sizes.
Add to that all the different sizes for power supplies, Frequency inverters, stepper motor controllers and what not and you’ll get into a big database.
Quelectrotech https://www.qelectrotech.org/ is a program that comes up regularly for this sort of situation. It is under active (if slow) development and is cross platform. There are some helpful videos on YouTube. It may be better suited to design and documentation of a control panel than KiCad. Or if money is no object, you could always look at EPlan.
Seconding what @marekr said: If anyone who has experience using KiCad to design electrical panels and things like that can make some feature requests detailing what is missing in comparison to the commercial tools for this kind of thing, it can help clarify for the devs what people would be looking for. It’s possible that expanding in this direction is easy to add to the roadmap, or it’s possible people want things that are just too different from PCB design and we would recommend people put their support behind another project like QElectroTech.
We have been working for a couple of month in testing and building an in house library of the components we use. But we don’t intend to release it at large until we get the structure right, and that I feel we managed to get an ear from the developers and maybe a few interested people that would participate in the work.
I plan to post a few demo projects to show results by the end of the summer.
So far, things are going pretty well, but there are still some workarounds I need to try to make it even better.
For example there is a scaling issue for the 3D viewer. It does not show large parts (ex: a 30in x 24in panel.) So for a temporary work around, I will test try to scale everything to 1/10th for the step files.
At this point, we think it makes sense to work with what Kicad offers, as much as possible, before we start requesting changes. If we manage to attain our goals, with the basic package, we should get a better response from the DEV team when we present a problem, or request some features.
We understand the effort to develop Kicad, and that the resources are not unlimited. So we try to limit our demands as much as possible.
Also, v6 will be released eventually and from what I read, some of those improvements will make our life much better.
So far, we managed over a 500 parts symbols, footprints and 3D models.
The hardest thing is deciding how to create the complex parts like controllers or drives. We use a different unit for each connectors, and sometimes a unit for the global interconnection representing the complete product.
For Relays like DPDT, we have 5 units. A for the coil, B to E for the contacts. Works pretty well so far.
The other decisions we had to make is how to structure the documentation for the different components. One trick I found is that you can point to a folder in the user fields by using (*.*) for the document name. Really usefull.
Martin, do you mind sharing some screenshots or pictures of your designs? Have you had any further interest in this from other independent panel / assembly designers? My own use case would be similar to your first post.
Do you use kicad to track items like conduit and connectors to help with BOM creation? How do you configure terminal blocks in your schematic? Do you just create a simple two pin part?
Hello spinchak.
We’re still working on this actively. We we’re waiting to upgrade to V5.99 and did some testing about a month ago.
The testing was conclusive and I’m now working on a 3Kw laser cuttin system CNC using Kicad for the panel design, but also for the electronic development.
We did not start automating on previous versions because we are short on staff and wanted to get the new revisions first… My team is too busy for now to touch this aspect of the Kicad panel design project. But it could become a group effort if there is enough interest. 0
But Kicad is the way to go for us because of our business vision of community engagement.
This is a project we did for an O2 concentration station. The panel is being installed in a municipal Filtration plant.
Keep talking we might be able to help each others.
Martin
There is still a lot of things to work out for this project to become highly productive. But there is great potential, and I have found ways to deal with most difficulties.
The ultimate goal is to automate all the wire cutting, labeling and panel assembly to a maximum.
But with a little programming effort and some outside of the box thinking, we think it can be a great tool for small inovative shops and people who need a tool like this.
I 'm also trying to see if we can mine some suppliers libraries to populate the system.
Martin
Here is the finished panel.
The panel layout is a little different because of some late changes, I did not have time to update.
But you get the idea.
This is really neat. I see in your final product picture that you have a stack light which I am assuming will be mounted externally. Do you track these external items in kicad?
In pcbnew, do you manually place the footprints on the DIN rail or are you able to get them to automatically snap to your DIN rail foot print? Do you import the manufacturers cad drawing for footprints, or do you redraw them by hand? For the 3D models are you able to use manufacturer supplied step files? Sometimes I find that they contain too much detail and I just want a simpler shape with fewer details. How do you deal with this issue?
Have you tried routing your wires in pcbnew, if so, how do you do so, considering that wire track allows for stacking in the z direction and insulation allows for wires to cross without connecting the associated nets. Do you put different wires that may overlap on different layers?
Have you considered or have already looked at FreeCad/StepUp workbench? It’s currently the foremost open source MCad, and the StepUp is really well thought out, allowing complex footprint creation, check 3d model fit and clearance, and if you 3d print, it can do that too.
We do use it in some cases for 3d Part placement on the footprint.
Like I mentionned to someone earlier, We started with the old Library format, and then decided to put a hold on development until we had the new version.
I tested V5.99 twop weeks ago, and so far had nos issues.
Now that this is going forward, we are studying the new format.
We’re not experts yet, but we are working on it.
We have to study ways of automating the creation and editing bulk series of components for libraries.
I did not find much on the subject so far.
These are all very good questions that we will be trying to address in the next phase of our KICAD integration into our business development.
I’ll start by giving you a bit of history to explain were we stand with Kicad, and why we went this way. So don’t despair, I think it’s important for people to understand our motivations.
I’ve been working in motion control for about 25 years. At first, I was a VERY technical sales rep, and my company sent me all over to solve problems that our engineers could not solve. For the last 20 years, I have been running my own (small) company and puting together custom solutions in what is now called Mechatronics.
My first electrical designs (25 years ago) were done using the drawing tools and connectors in MS EXCEL.
Autocad gave me a rash every time I tried to design with it.
I also looked at commercial tools, but found after enquiring around that most of those had a perpetual high cost of integration, ownership and maintenance. You are basically at the mercy of the companies that participate in the package.
So I settled on VISIO for a long time. But VISIO is MS and MS policies and actions rub agains the grain of my soal. They are not my friend.
Since I was trying to stay a small independent design firm, I was always looking at other solutions.
I got introduced to Kicad in 2017 when my girlfriend and I returned from a 3 year sailing trip.
We were trying to observe first hand what kind of damage the pollution and climate change is doing to the oceans. We were also exploring ways to make a difference. Even a small change would be better than nothing.
One of the objectives I gave myself, was to find tools and ways to innovate and design products without the harness from big corps software packages and their unlimited thirst for profits, which limits the potential for inventors, inovators and small independent research business like mine.
My first project with Kicad, was for a new version of our motion controller plateform. But after a few hours of playing with it, it became clear to my dyslexic mind that Kicad had potential for panel building as well.
So in april 2020, I started a 3 month work blitz trying to do understand KICAD enough to do a full design of two industrial control panels I had to build for clients.
- We studied and tested Kicad
- we put together our first component library,
- wrote some literature explaning our process, so we can share with others.
- and succesfully delivered our first panels.
Our verdict after doing those projects is this:
Two weeks ago I finally found time to test V5.99, and was pleased with the way it worked out.
Now we are starting work on new projects, but all the questions you asked still need to be resolved, coded and tested.
I’ll stop here with my story and try to explain some of the solutions I tested in another comment.
Mart
Here are some answers to your questions.
Footprints are place manually for now.
We clean them up first using a tool similar to Autocad, or draw them from scratch using a picture in the backgrund for quick reference.
We usually import 3D files for the 3D viewer, with FREECAD. Sometimes we use Stepup, but not for single parts, which takes more time.
But unfortunately, FREECAD is not ready to be our main 3D design tool just yet. I hope this will change with the integration of Realthunder’s solutions for part assemblies. I’m crossing my fingers while using an old license of Solidworks 2014.
OTHER POINTS YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN:
Hope this helps.
I’m trying to find time to put together a sample project with component library to post in the forum.
I’m open to put my component in a shared library, but I want to make sure it is done right and that the format will fit my objectives.
I’m also looking for suggestions as to what is the best way to work on this as a group effort.
Marty
