First-Robotics Challenge

Schematic Library Symbols
1

Hello!
I hope this is the right place to ask.

I’m introducing Kicad to a group of highschool students participating in a First robotic challenge"
https://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc

The teachers did not know about KiCad and it’s possibilities. But the response was extremely positive, and the students already started looking at the app.

At first, we will use Schematic and symbol library for the interconnection of all the components, as well as a structure to keep all the related datasheets and drawings.

With time we will start them on desighning PCB’s.

My question:
Has anybody done a symbol library for the parts available from Andymark the online supply store for the competition components?

https://www.andymark.com/categories/frc-control-system?

Most components are National Instruments or

My goal is to help the students to create a structured project that will improve their design skillset.

But this is a fairly big undertaking at first, so if anybody has leads to help save time, by not reinventing the wheel, it would be greatly appreceated.

2

Most of what you point to looks like assembled components. Kicad is more suited to building those components than interconnecting them. At some point other’s have pointed to software that might actually be more suitable to that kind of thing.

3

Thanks Hermit,
But I will challenge a few points…
I’ve been designing control panels and PCB’s with a bunch of tools for many years (I started doing my first electrical schematics in MS EXCEL with the drawing tools), and honestly, since I found KiCad last year, it solved all kinds of problems and is working great for the majority of my needs.

I can do PCB’s to full control panel in one application.
I keep my components in order with the libraries, and I even started testing 3D representations of full enclosure with the PCBLayout tool and some 3D drawings generated in FreeCad or other software. .

It takes a bit of Outside the box thinking, but Assembled components are just the same as small components, except in size and interconnection techniques.

I even do my pneumatic and Hydraulic schematics design with this.

Of course, there are some nice simulation software available, and some complete suites if you have the financial backbone and staff to feed the beasts. But it is not my case.

4

Using schematic tools for block diagrams at a higher level can actually be useful. I’m not aware of any pre-existing KiCad libraries for this purpose (for any blocks, let alone AndyMark products in particular) but I think it’s a reasonable thing to do. We have created internal Altium libraries for this purpose at my work.

5

@craftyjon
Thanks for your reply. I had to ask.
If I don’t find anything already made, we will go ahead and build the library ourselves, and maybe start a trend with the kids.

6

All is good. It sounds like you are well capable. I just didn’t want someone starting out with a tool as a ‘one off’ when they might get better and quicker results with something else. I encourage the use of Kicad unless it is going to be a negative experience for someone. :wink:

7

@hermit
Thanks for your input. It’s nice to have quick feedback.
We like I said earlier, I had to ask.

This pproject is great to promote Kicad to kids… Our future engineers…

8

Using Kicad and giving back by sharing the library? Maybe even the project? Not to mention a foothold into another world of possibilities in their lives? :smiley:

Good luck with the project and I wouldn’t mind an occasional update on the Kicad portion of it.

1 Like
9

@hermit
It is definitely part of the plan.
If you’re interested, we plan to share our libraries and tools as much as possible. I have not seen any teams using KiCad yet, but it’s my first year as a mentor, so I might get surprises.

Just blabbing here, but if we are successful, I see a possibility create a forum dedicated to this sharing for the teams.

Let me know if you have ideas…

10

(disclaimer: I was involved in FRC as a student in high school, but that was a while ago so some things have changed)

I think there are some teams who have used KiCad in the past, and a quick search of Chief Delphi shows some discussion on it (if you haven’t yet heard of Chief Delphi, it is a discussion forum just for FRC. You can ask some of the senior students about it, they probably know all about it). The main thing that may have stymied its adoption though is the fact that Altium gives several licenses for their product inside the Kit of Parts (in past years they have allowed up to 5 for the team).

The majority of the electrical that teams do is just joining together the commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) components provided, but there is some room for custom circuits if you have team members adventurous enough (and as long as they follow the rules). Usually these will be for interfacing sensors with the robot, but the compressed time frame of the build season usually precludes any fancy custom electronics design (although with the removal of stop-build day for this season, that may not be a factor anymore). One of the more successful teams actually spun out an electronics company called Cross the Road Electronics (if memory serves, it was spun out of Michigan team 217, the Thunder Chickens, hence the name).

While it is great to give the students the ECAD knowledge, I would also recommend they get MCAD knowledge alongside the mechanical team. In my experience, the most difficult part of doing the electrical design for FRC robots was not figuring out the wiring configuration (in the past they have even provided a wiring diagram for the basic setup) but was instead figuring out where every component would go on the robot and how to route the wires between them.

1 Like
11

An interesting variation on this theme. Instead of a ‘competition’ have a ‘cooperation’. It would make an interesting ‘phase two’. Maybe pair up teams to work with each other remotely.

1 Like
12

@imcinerney
Wow, thanks for the info.
The team I’m involved with ASTRO #7605 was started last season.
https://astro7605.infast.ca/presentation-de-lequipe-astro-7605/

So, basically, there is not much history and their contact network in not well developed yet.

Our mechanical team is working with Autodesk Inventor, and the school has a bunch of free temporary academic licences for the teachers and kids, along with a bunch of other software.
But the control team which I’m involved with, have little experience with any ECAD, or system schematics using an ECAD.
Also, I honestly prefer to give open source a hand, than encourage large companies that only offer licensing schemes that gives advantages to the large corporations, or force you to work online for a large monthly fee.
Once a student gets access to a tool like KiCad, they won’t need to worry about finding an cracked version to work with when they get out of school.

This year, we’re allowed to work ahead of time. We decided to start organizing all the info in advance, and to build a test bench for the programming team, so they can prepare routines and test new concepts while the robot will be built. This will enable us to be ready when we receive the competition rules.

As for the discussion in the Chief Delphi, I found that most of the people involved have next to zero experience with KiCAD, and it’s library capacities, or using KiCAD to do high and low level schematics conception with KiCAD.

I have tried a bunch of drafting tools to do electronic and electrical schematics. From MS EXCELL, Visio , Altium, Eagle, Autocad, and some fancy spinoffs built on Visio. Some do offer simulation capabilities which are nice, but not needed in my case.

My opinion is that, although having a bit of a steep learning curve, KiCAD is an amazing open source tool that has everything needed to do the job. And even CERN seems to agree.

Thanks again for the great reply!

Martin

13

Interesting indeed.
I’m involved with a private school for this project at the moment. And most of these kids have fortunate parents and a fancy phone or tablet.
But the people I’m involved with recognize this and some are thinking to partner up with less wealthy public schools, to give a hand.
Living in one of the poorest towns in my region, I’m hoping to take this learning experience and team up with the private school, to start a team with a local public school, and to give this opportunity to less fortunate kids.

Anywho… Thanks for the answers.
We’ll be in touch.

2 Likes
14

If you are comfortable doing so, would you put a little Bio and experience information in your profile? It sometimes helps people tailor a response if they know a little about the person they are talking to.

I have heard about “First Robotics” but no first-hand encounter. It sounds like something a GHOM might get involved with, after he pays off enough debt so he can afford to retire.

Dale

15

I have a habit of not revealing everything in one go in order to observe, before being too involved… Old habit die hard I guess.
But I agree with you, and will update my profile.
I’m not familiar with GHOM? A quick search reveals it as some kind of monster in a game named Diablo :smile:

But your comment make it sound a bit geriatric :smile:

1 Like
16

Grumpy H old man?..

2 Likes
17

It’s done, you can go check who I am.

As for GHOM, @der.ule gave me the meaning :joy:

You’re right, but for some reason, we’re mostly younger professionals and ex students who don’t have kids in this school, but were all hoping one day to be part of this cool of contests.

Your basic nerd complement :slight_smile:

1 Like
18

Obviously, I am far from up-to-date about current video games.

GHOM : “Grey-Haired Old Man”

Last week my supervisor was joking about how I could pass for Gandalf the Wizard, if I only had a long, flowing robe, and a staff. I told him to give me the staff, and I would gladly assume the position of Chief of Staff.

Thanks for the bio information. You almost sound like some of the counter-culture folks I knew about half a century ago - it’s good to think they haven’t ALL sold out to The Establishment! I can imagine myself, at High School age, wanting to hang out with somebody like you. Your Concordia University is obviously not the institution located 20 mi (30 km) from my home.

If I must present valid Nerd Credentials to part of First Robotics, then I’ll tell about the time I sought out the grave of Dr Otto Schmitt, inventor of the “Schmitt Trigger”.

Dale

19

That is funny!
Yes I guess I too am getting older, and you look like you could be a fine Chief of Staff :slight_smile: and I’m certain you would pass the Nerd criteria s.

I just updated my picture created by my beautiful spouse. She seems to think I have a penchant for inventive people.

I’ll comeback with some realizations in the future.

Thanks again!

20

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.