Adding Spice Models to a Dual OPAMP. Why Doesn't This Work? (7.0.8)

ML9104 · October 17, 2023, 9:21pm

I’m working on a project using TLV9362 dual opamps and would like to add the Spice model to do simulations.
Adding the model is no issue (“SPICE model from file…”).
But doing the pin selection is impossible.
If I select Unit A on the schematic and do the pin sequencing, it works fine.
I then select Unit B and do the pin sequencing for that as needed. Also fine.
But if I then go back to Unit A, I see that it now has the pin sequencing from Unit B.
And vice versa. I can do this until I’m black in the face, but the end result is, that I’m not able to do pin sequencing on a dual opamp.

Any ideas?

TwoWay.zip (16.1 KB)

hmk · October 17, 2023, 10:38pm

Check this thread:

You define macromodels for dual opamp, using the single model but allocating the appropriate pins for units A and B in the dual opamp. Shown in the model listing in the first post.

ML9104 · October 17, 2023, 11:23pm

Thanks, but a lousy solution IMO.
Why should I modify SPICE models that semiconductor engineers have spent time on? I’ll probably do more harm than good.
The fact is, that the KiCAD Ngspice user interface is dysfunctional (I’ve said this before).
Why not just pass the model to the simulator twice with two different pin sequences? The model itself is completely agnostic about this and has no pin numbers. And the simulator doesn’t care if it’s a single, dual, quad or whatever part.

I’ll revert to using single opamps with single models in my schematics instead. Sigh.
It could have been good…

Just to be clear: I love working with KiCAD, but the simulation part has me tearing my hair out.

hmk · October 18, 2023, 8:33am

You don’t need to modify the model, you can just create a file with the pin definitions for the multi-unit device that includes the original model file for the single device. One example:

TL074-quad.lib (291 Bytes)
TL074.301 (1.1 KB)

ML9104 · October 18, 2023, 11:31pm

Thanks for you effort.
I’m sure you can do a lot of things with extra files.
But that raises the question: why doesn’t the KiCAD simulation interface do this by itself?
What’s the purpose of the “Pin assignment” function at all if it can’t do this?
Eeschema knows it’s a dual/quad. It knows the pin numbers. It knows the unit. It knows the model. Etc.
Dysfunctional.

hmk · October 19, 2023, 9:31am

The most likely reason why the KiCad simulation interface doesn’t handle mapping single models to multiple instances is because nobody has implemented it in the code. You can check in gitlab if there is a request and upvote it if there is, or make one if there isn’t.

It seems like a reasonable feature to me, but in the meantime to get things done quickly and not have to wait for future versions of KiCad, I have used the method I gave an example of above.

scandey · October 19, 2023, 3:26pm

There’s a long standing feature request for this: Difficult to simulate multipart devices (lp:#1781290) (#1779) · Issues · KiCad / KiCad Source Code / kicad · GitLab

One limiting factor for overall ease of use is that manufacturer spice models have no standards for labeling what internal model pins do what, so users already have to intervene to set pins correctly. Currently, the end user also has to write a “meta” model with multiple instances of the manufacturer model for use with a mutli-unit op amp.

Seems like Holger’s suggested solution is that KiCad make a “meta” model internally, so that users don’t have to do it by hand. That might require a dialog that asks for how many model instances should be in the new meta model and which pins are shared between them.

BlackCoffee · October 19, 2023, 3:45pm

@ML9104 FYI…

I don’t remember where I downloaded the PSPICE models/lib .zip file (containing over 5,000 /ib/model .zip files) it was a few years ago. File date is 2019. I see TLV9302 so, perhaps file is too old or I’m just overlooking TLV9362. I just Googled it and see various links to downloading them…

Example below shows using the LM741 lib

Earlier Kicad versions contained pSpice lib/models and that’s most likely why I preferred downloaded and used them plus, they work in both NGspice and LTspice (shown in video)

ML9104 · October 19, 2023, 5:32pm

Thanks All.
At least it seems to be under consideration. But it’s incredibly confusing to a greenhorn.
And very unfriendly. You can sit for half an hour wondering why it’s possible to change pin assignments, but it doesn’t work.
I’ll stick to working with single opamp symbols in the future.
Is the Ngspice interface understaffed somehow? It feels that way (single person with no option of bouncing ideas).
I’m sorry, I’m not a progammer, otherwise I’d offer help.

BlackCoffee · October 19, 2023, 6:15pm

I’m simple-minded - using National_Semiconductor’s pSpice Lib/Model’s is simple and I never need to change anything (pin’s, etc…) - I just use as shown in video. Only needed to set Kicad to use pSpice and LTspice.

invntefx · October 19, 2023, 7:25pm

Here is a project.download
TLV9362.zip (166.6 KB)

tlv9362_simset

Here is the model.

========== COPY BETWEEN LINES ==========

* DUAL OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER
* (TLV9361 X 2 OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS)
*
* SPICE (Simulation Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis)
* SUBCIRCUIT
*
.SUBCKT TLV9362 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
XA 3 2 8 4 1 TLV9361
XB 5 6 8 4 7 TLV9361
.ENDS
*
*
* Connections:
*                NON-INVERTING INPUT
*                |   INVERTING INPUT
*                |   |   POSITIVE POWER SUPPLY
*                |   |   |   NEGATIVE POWER SUPPLY
*                |   |   |   |   OUTPUT
*                |   |   |   |   | 
.SUBCKT TLV9361 IN+ IN- VCC VEE OUT
*
* MODEL DEFINITIONS:
.MODEL BB_SW VSWITCH(RON=50 ROFF=1E12 VON=700E-3 VOFF=0)
.MODEL ESD_SW VSWITCH(RON=50 ROFF=1E12 VON=250E-3 VOFF=0)
.MODEL OL_SW VSWITCH(RON=1E-3 ROFF=1E9 VON=900E-3 VOFF=800E-3)
.MODEL OR_SW VSWITCH(RON=10E-3 ROFF=1E9 VON=1E-3 VOFF=0)
.MODEL R_NOISELESS RES(T_ABS=-273.15)
*
V_OS        25 26 400U
V_GRP       53 MID 50
V_GRN       54 MID -35
I_OS        ESDN MID 0
I_B         26 MID 10P
V_ISCP      68 MID 65
V_ISCN      69 MID -65
V_ORN       67 VCLP -4.25
V11         73 66 0
V_ORP       65 VCLP 4.25
V12         72 64 0
V4          40 OUT 0
VCM_MIN     89 VEE_B 0
VCM_MAX     90 VCC_B -2
I_Q         VCC VEE 2.6M
XIN11       ESDN MID FEMT_0
XI_N        MID 26 FEMT_0
XE_N        ESDP 26 VNSE_0
C3          27 MID 5F IC=0 
R74         MID 27 R_RES_1 1MEG 
GVCCS5      27 MID VSENSE MID  -1U
C2          CLAMP MID 184.6N IC=0 
R61         MID CLAMP R_RES_2 1MEG 
XVCCS_LIM_2 28 MID MID CLAMP VCCS_LIM_2_0
R60         MID 28 R_RES_3 1MEG 
XVCCS_LIM_1 29 30 MID 28 VCCS_LIM_1_0
C23         31 MID 8P IC=0 
R73         31 32 R_RES_4 10K 
R72         32 33 R_RES_5 352K 
C22         34 MID 75.07F IC=0 
R71         34 35 R_RES_6 10K 
R70         35 36 R_RES_7 18.38K 
XVCCS_LIM_ZO 34 MID MID 37 VCCS_LIM_ZO_0
R69         36 MID R_RES_8 1 
C21         38 39 90N IC=0 
R68         39 MID R_RES_9 463.4 
R67         39 38 R_RES_10 10K 
G_ADJUST2   36 MID 32 MID  1
R64         33 MID R_RES_11 1 
G_ADJUST1   33 MID 39 MID  22.58
R11         38 MID R_RES_12 1 
R7          37 MID 1 
RDUMMY      MID 40 R_RES_13 1.01K 
RX          40 37 R_RES_14 10.1K 
G_AOL_ZO    38 MID CL_CLAMP 40  -368.16
R63         MID 41 R_RES_15 111.1 
C6          41 42 159.2P 
R24         42 41 R_RES_16 100MEG 
G_ADJUST    42 MID VEE_B MID  -802.1M
R23         MID 42 R_RES_17 1 
R22         MID 43 R_RES_18 1 
GVCCS4      43 MID 44 MID  -400
R20         MID 44 R_RES_19 2.506K 
C5          44 45 3.183P 
R19         45 44 R_RES_20 1MEG 
R18         MID 45 R_RES_21 1 
GVCCS3      45 MID 46 MID  -1
R17         MID 46 R_RES_22 900.8 
C4          46 47 176.8P 
R16         47 46 R_RES_23 1MEG 
GVCCS2      47 MID VCC_B MID  -1.761M
R8          MID 47 R_RES_24 1 
R15         MID 48 R_RES_25 1 
G_2         48 MID 49 MID  -6
R2B         MID 49 R_RES_26 200K 
C1B         49 50 159F 
R1B         50 49 R_RES_27 1MEG 
R14         MID 50 R_RES_28 1 
GVCCS1      50 MID 51 MID  -1
R6          MID 51 R_RES_29 200 
C1          51 52 159.2P 
R5          52 51 R_RES_30 1MEG 
G_1         52 MID ESDP MID  -7.924M
RSRC        MID 52 R_RES_31 1 
R13         INN_ESDP INN_ESDN R_RES_32 50 
R12         INP_ESDN INP_ESDP R_RES_33 50 
XGR_AMP     53 54 55 MID 56 57 CLAMP_AMP_HI_0
R49         53 MID R_RES_34 1G 
R54         54 MID R_RES_35 1G 
R55         VSENSE 55 R_RES_36 1M 
C16         55 MID 1F 
R50         56 MID R_RES_37 1 
R53         MID 57 R_RES_38 1 
R51         56 58 R_RES_39 1M 
R52         57 59 R_RES_40 1M 
C14         58 MID 1F 
C15         MID 59 1F 
XGR_SRC     58 59 CLAMP MID VCCS_LIM_GR_0
S5          VEE INP_ESDN VEE INP_ESDN  S_VSWITCH_1
S4          VEE INN_ESDN VEE INN_ESDN  S_VSWITCH_2
S2          INN_ESDP VCC INN_ESDP VCC  S_VSWITCH_3
S3          INP_ESDP VCC INP_ESDP VCC  S_VSWITCH_4
C18         60 MID 1P 
R57         61 60 R_RES_41 100 
C17         62 MID 1P 
R56         63 62 R_RES_42 100 
R48         MID 64 R_RES_43 1 
G11         64 MID 65 MID  -1
R47         66 MID R_RES_44 1 
G10         66 MID 67 MID  -1
XIQP        VIMON MID MID VCC VCCS_LIMIT_IQ_0
XIQN        MID VIMON VEE MID VCCS_LIMIT_IQ_0
C_DIFF      ESDP ESDN 9P 
XCL_AMP     68 69 VIMON MID 70 71 CLAMP_AMP_LO_0
SOR_SWP     CLAMP 72 CLAMP 72  S_VSWITCH_5
SOR_SWN     73 CLAMP 73 CLAMP  S_VSWITCH_6
R42         70 MID R_RES_45 1 
R45         MID 71 R_RES_46 1 
R43         70 74 R_RES_47 1M 
R44         71 75 R_RES_48 1M 
C12         74 MID 1F 
C13         MID 75 1F 
XCL_SRC     74 75 CL_CLAMP MID VCCS_LIM_4_0
R41         68 MID R_RES_49 1G 
R46         MID 69 R_RES_50 1G 
XCLAWP      VIMON MID 76 VCC_B VCCS_LIM_CLAW+_0
XCLAWN      MID VIMON VEE_B 77 VCCS_LIM_CLAW-_0
R29         76 VCC_B R_RES_51 1K 
R30         76 78 R_RES_52 1M 
R32         VEE_B 77 R_RES_53 1K 
R33         79 77 R_RES_54 1M 
C9          79 MID 1F 
C8          MID 78 1F 
G8          VCC_CLP MID 78 MID  -1M
R31         VCC_CLP MID R_RES_55 1K 
G9          VEE_CLP MID 79 MID  -1M
R34         MID VEE_CLP R_RES_56 1K 
XCLAW_AMP   VCC_CLP VEE_CLP VOUT_S MID 80 81 CLAMP_AMP_LO_0
R35         VCC_CLP MID R_RES_57 1G 
R40         VEE_CLP MID R_RES_58 1G 
R36         80 MID R_RES_59 1 
R39         MID 81 R_RES_60 1 
R37         80 82 R_RES_61 1M 
R38         81 83 R_RES_62 1M 
C10         82 MID 1F 
C11         MID 83 1F 
XCLAW_SRC   82 83 CLAW_CLAMP MID VCCS_LIM_3_0
H2          63 MID V11 -1
H3          61 MID V12 1
C19         SW_OL MID 1P 
R59         84 SW_OL R_RES_63 100 
R58         84 MID R_RES_64 1 
XOL_SENSE   MID 84 62 60 OL_SENSE_0
S1          38 39 SW_OL MID  S_VSWITCH_7
H3_2        85 MID V4 1K
S7          VEE OUT VEE OUT  S_VSWITCH_8
S6          OUT VCC OUT VCC  S_VSWITCH_9
R83         MID 86 R_RES_65 1G 
R_VOUT_S    86 VOUT_S R_RES_66 100 
C_VOUT_S    VOUT_S MID 1N 
E3          86 MID OUT MID  1
C_VIMON     VIMON MID 1N 
R_VIMON     85 VIMON R_RES_67 100 
R81         MID 85 R_RES_68 1G 
R_VCLP      87 VCLP R_RES_69 100 
C_VCLP      VCLP MID 100P 
E2          87 MID CL_CLAMP MID  1
R66         MID CL_CLAMP R_RES_70 1K 
G16         CL_CLAMP MID CLAW_CLAMP MID  -1M
R65         MID CLAW_CLAMP R_RES_71 1K 
G15         CLAW_CLAMP MID 27 MID  -1M
R62         MID VSENSE R_RES_72 1K 
G12         VSENSE MID CLAMP MID  -1M
C7          29 MID 1F 
R28         29 88 R_RES_73 1M 
R25         MID 89 R_RES_74 1G 
R26         90 MID R_RES_75 1G 
R27         MID 88 R_RES_76 1 
XVCM_CLAMP  91 MID 88 MID 90 89 VCCS_EXT_LIM_0
E6          MID 0 92 0  1
R109        VEE_B 0 R_RES_77 1 
R113        93 VEE_B R_RES_78 1M 
C35         93 0 1F 
R112        92 93 R_RES_79 1MEG 
C34         92 0 100N 
R108        92 0 R_RES_80 1T 
R111        94 92 R_RES_81 1MEG 
C33         94 0 1F 
R110        VCC_B 94 R_RES_82 1M 
R107        VCC_B 0 R_RES_83 1 
G37         VEE_B 0 VEE 0  -1
G36         VCC_B 0 VCC 0  -1
R21         95 91 R_RES_84 1K 
G6          91 95 43 41  -1M
R10         30 ESDN R_RES_85 1M 
R9          95 96 R_RES_86 1M 
R_CMR       25 96 R_RES_87 1K 
G_CMR       96 25 48 MID  -1M
C_CMN       ESDN MID 1P 
C_CMP       MID ESDP 1P 
R4          ESDN MID R_RES_88 1T 
R3          MID ESDP R_RES_89 1T 
R2          IN- ESDN R_RES_90 10M 
R1          IN+ ESDP R_RES_91 10M 

.MODEL R_RES_1 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_2 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_3 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_4 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_5 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_6 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_7 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_8 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_9 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_10 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_11 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_12 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_13 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_14 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_15 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_16 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_17 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_18 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_19 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_20 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_21 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_22 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_23 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_24 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_25 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_26 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_27 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_28 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_29 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_30 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_31 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_32 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_33 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_34 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_35 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_36 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_37 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_38 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_39 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_40 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_1 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_2 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_3 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_4 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL R_RES_41 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_42 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_43 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_44 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_5 VSWITCH (RON=10M ROFF=1G VON=10M VOFF=0)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_6 VSWITCH (RON=10M ROFF=1G VON=10M VOFF=0)
.MODEL R_RES_45 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_46 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_47 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_48 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_49 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_50 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_51 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_52 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_53 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_54 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_55 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_56 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_57 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_58 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_59 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_60 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_61 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_62 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_63 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_64 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_7 VSWITCH (RON=1M ROFF=1G VON=900M VOFF=800M)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_8 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL S_VSWITCH_9 VSWITCH (RON=50 ROFF=1T VON=500M VOFF=450M)
.MODEL R_RES_65 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_66 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_67 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_68 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_69 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_70 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_71 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_72 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_73 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_74 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_75 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_76 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_77 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_78 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_79 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_80 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_81 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_82 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_83 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_84 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_85 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_86 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_87 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_88 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_89 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_90 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.MODEL R_RES_91 RES ( TCE=0 T_ABS=-273.15)
.ENDS TLV9362

* FEMT - INPUT CURRENT NOISE IN FA/RT-HZ
.SUBCKT FEMT_0  1 2
* INPUT VARIABLES
* SET UP 1/F NOISE
* FLWF = 1/F FREQUENCY IN HZ
.PARAM FLWF=1E-3
* NLFF = CURRENT NOISE DENSITY AT 1/F FREQUENCY IN FA/RT(HZ)
.PARAM NLFF=100
* SET UP BROADBAND NOISE
* NVRF = BROADBAND CURRENT NOISE DENSITY IN FA/RT(HZ)
.PARAM NVRF=100
* CALCULATED VALUES
.PARAM GLFF={PWR(FLWF,0.25)*NLFF/1164}
.PARAM RNVF={1.184*PWR(NVRF,2)}
.MODEL DVNF D KF={PWR(FLWF,0.5)/1E11} IS=1.0E-16
* CIRCUIT CONNECTIONS
I1 0 7 10E-3
I2 0 8 10E-3
D1 7 0 DVNF
D2 8 0 DVNF
E1 3 6 7 8 {GLFF}
R1 3 0 1E9
R2 3 0 1E9
R3 3 6 1E9
E2 6 4 5 0 10
R4 5 0 {RNVF}
R5 5 0 {RNVF}
R6 3 4 1E9
R7 4 0 1E9
G1 1 2 3 4 1E-6
.ENDS


* VNSE - INPUT VOLTAGE NOISE IN NV/RT-HZ
.SUBCKT VNSE_0  1 2
* INPUT VARIABLES
* SET UP 1/F NOISE
* FLW = 1/F FREQUENCY IN HZ
.PARAM FLW=10
* NLF = VOLTAGE NOISE DENSITY AT 1/F FREQUENCY IN NV/RT(HZ)
.PARAM NLF=64.13
* SET UP BROADBAND NOISE
* NVR = BROADBAND VOLTAGE NOISE DENSITY IN NV/RT(HZ)
.PARAM NVR=4
* CALCULATED VALUES
.PARAM GLF={PWR(FLW,0.25)*NLF/1164}
.PARAM RNV={1.184*PWR(NVR,2)}
.MODEL DVN D KF={PWR(FLW,0.5)/1E11} IS=1.0E-16
* CIRCUIT CONNECTIONS
I1 0 7 10E-3
I2 0 8 10E-3
D1 7 0 DVN
D2 8 0 DVN
E1 3 6 7 8 {GLF}
R1 3 0 1E9
R2 3 0 1E9
R3 3 6 1E9
E2 6 4 5 0 10
R4 5 0 {RNV}
R5 5 0 {RNV}
R6 3 4 1E9
R7 4 0 1E9
E3 1 2 3 4 1
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - AOL SECOND STAGE
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_2_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1.26E-1
.PARAM IPOS = 4.615
.PARAM INEG = -4.615
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - AOL FIRST STAGE
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_1_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1E-4
.PARAM IPOS = .5
.PARAM INEG = -.5
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - ZO OUTPUT
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_ZO_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1
.PARAM IPOS = 2E3
.PARAM INEG = -2E3
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS



* CLAMP AMP - OVERLOAD AND GROSS CLAMP
.SUBCKT CLAMP_AMP_HI_0  VC+ VC- VIN COM VO+ VO-
*  PINS     CLAMP V+  CLAMP V-  VIN  COM   VOUT+  VOUT-
.PARAM G=10
* OUTPUT G(COM,0) WHEN CONDITION NOT MET
GVO+ COM VO+ VALUE = {IF(V(VIN,COM)>V(VC+,COM),((V(VIN,COM)-V(VC+,COM))*G),0)}
GVO- COM VO- VALUE = {IF(V(VIN,COM)<V(VC-,COM),((V(VC-,COM)-V(VIN,COM))*G),0)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - GROSS CLAMP
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_GR_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1
.PARAM IPOS = 14
.PARAM INEG = -12
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED SOURCE WITH LIMITS - IOUT DRAW
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIMIT_IQ_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1E-3
G1 IOUT- IOUT+ VALUE={IF( (V(VC+,VC-)<=0),0,GAIN*V(VC+,VC-) )}
.ENDS


* CLAMP AMP - CLAW AND CURRENT LIMIT CLAMP
.SUBCKT CLAMP_AMP_LO_0  VC+ VC- VIN COM VO+ VO-
*  PINS     CLAMP V+  CLAMP V-  VIN  COM   VOUT+  VOUT-
.PARAM G=1
* OUTPUT G(COM,0) WHEN CONDITION NOT MET
GVO+ COM VO+ VALUE = {IF(V(VIN,COM)>V(VC+,COM),((V(VIN,COM)-V(VC+,COM))*G),0)}
GVO- COM VO- VALUE = {IF(V(VIN,COM)<V(VC-,COM),((V(VC-,COM)-V(VIN,COM))*G),0)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - CURRENT LIMIT CLAMP
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_4_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1
.PARAM IPOS = 200E-3
.PARAM INEG = -200E-3
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE (TABLE-DEFINED) - CLAW+
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_CLAW+_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- TABLE {(V(VC+,VC-))} =
+(0, 6.87E-5)
+(15, 4.04E-4)
+(30, 7.93E-4)
+(45, 1.27E-3)
+(60, 1.8E-3)
+(70, 2.4E-3)
+(80, 3.75E-3)
+(90, 9.83E-3)
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE (TABLE-DEFINED) - CLAW-
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_CLAW-_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- TABLE {(V(VC+,VC-))} =
+(0, 7.59E-5)
+(40, 1.21E-3)
+(60, 2E-3)
+(70, 2.61E-3)
+(80, 4.42E-3)
+(90, 9.61E-3)
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH LIMITS - CLAW CLAMP
.SUBCKT VCCS_LIM_3_0  VC+ VC- IOUT+ IOUT-
.PARAM GAIN = 1
.PARAM IPOS = 100E-3
.PARAM INEG = -70E-3
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VC+,VC-),INEG,IPOS)}
.ENDS


* OVERLOAD SENSE FOR ZO SWITCHES
.SUBCKT OL_SENSE_0  COM SW+ OLN  OLP
* PINS          COM SW+ OLN OLP
GSW+ COM SW+ VALUE = {IF((V(OLN,COM)>10E-3 | V(OLP,COM)>10E-3),1,0)}
.ENDS


* VOLTAGE-CONTROLLED CURRENT SOURCE WITH EXTERNAL LIMITS - VCM CLAMP
.SUBCKT VCCS_EXT_LIM_0  VIN+ VIN- IOUT- IOUT+ VP+ VP-
.PARAM GAIN = 1
G1 IOUT+ IOUT- VALUE={LIMIT(GAIN*V(VIN+,VIN-),V(VP-,VIN-), V(VP+,VIN-))}
.ENDS


.END

========== END COPY ==========

ML9104 · October 19, 2023, 8:18pm

Do you mean “here is my own modified model”?
Because it’s not the one I downloaded from TI a few days ago.

ML9104 · October 19, 2023, 11:06pm

This is rubbish.
The symbols are well-defined with “unit A”, “unit B”, “unit C”, “unit D” and “unit E”, where A…D are the single parts and E is the power part (quad-device example). So where’s the damn problem passing this to ngspice, instead of leaving the user clueless.
If it’s too difficult to do, then greyout/disable the “pin assignment” option and leave users to figure it out for themselves. Anything is better than the current “functionality”.

invntefx · October 19, 2023, 11:10pm

I just re-posted a working example. See above.

scandey · October 19, 2023, 11:30pm

There’s a couple of subtle issues related to standardization that KiCad would have to solve to make this automagically viable without any user input (none of which KiCad can solve IMO). (Disclaimer, I am not a developer, just another user who is also often frustrated with SPICE simulations)

For one thing, the models from manufacturers can have arbitrary pin order and naming, often only explained by space-separated comments on various lines. Many op amp models look like the one posted above, nicely organized and labeled in a understandable way (to a human). Unfortunately, a lot of models do not have any of those niceties and once you get to parts other than op amps there is not much consistency at all. Some of that probably goes back to SPICE having a long and decentralized history with little GUI use for a long time.

The other thing is that not all KiCad schematic symbols have to work like the way you described. While I personally agree with the logic you described for op amps (and so does the KLC), there’s no strict rule on that. I’ve seen symbols where the first unit has the power pins and none of the later ones do. There’s no easy way that I can think of for KiCad to systemically identify what all the pins should do on a symbol (especially one that isn’t an op amp).

ML9104 · October 19, 2023, 11:46pm

@scandey, I’m with you that this can be difficult regarding the points you raise.

So, two simple solutions:
1: disable pin assignment for symbols with multiple units (this should be simple). That’ll teach them!
2: smack a warning on the screen. This already happens twice when just trying to add a simulation model. Neither of the “in-your-face” messages are helpful. I’m happy to help giving them further substance if I only knew why they are there… (I’m aware that I didn’t add any Spice models yet).

The current state of things is not really acceptable and incredibly time-wasting for users.

invntefx · October 20, 2023, 12:55am

Universal Multiple SPICE Models.

=========

* UNIVERSAL DUOPAMP
*
.SUBCKT DUOPAMP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
XA 3 2 8 4 1 OPAMP
XB 5 6 8 4 7 OPAMP
.ENDS
*
.SUBCKT OPAMP 1 2 3 4 5
(SINGLE OPAMP MODEL GOES HERE)
*
* PIN NAMES DEPENDS ON MODEL
* PIN NAMES DOES NOT AFFECT UNIVERSAL DUOAMP SUBCIRCUIT FUNCTIONALITY
* .SUBCKT "OPAMP" MODEL NAME MUST MATCH UNITS A & B
* TOP UNIVERSAL .SUBCKT NAME MUST BE DIFFERENT THAN UNITS A & B
* PLACE ANY COMPATIBLE DUAL OPAMP SPICE MODEL BELOW THE TOP .SUBCKT
*
* ALWAYS 'SAVE AS' NAME OF TOP .SUBCKT
* THIS EXAMPLE: DUOPAMP.CIR OR DUOAMP.LIB
*
=========
=========
* THIS UNIVERSAL METHOD ALSO APPLIES TO ANY QUADOPAMP
*
.SUBCKT QUADOPAMP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
XA 3 2 4 11 1 OPAMP
XB 5 6 4 11 7 OPAMP
XC 10 9 4 11 8 OPAMP
XD 12 13 4 11 14 OPAMP
.ENDS
*
.SUBCKT OPAMP 1 2 3 4 5
(SINGLE OPAMP MODEL GOES HERE)

=========

NOTE: YOU CAN APPLY THIS UNIVERSAL MULTIPLE UNITS
SYNTAX TO PRACTICALLY ANY SPICE MODEL REQUIRING MULTIPLE UNITS
IT HAS BEEN AROUND NEARLY AS LONG AS SPICE HAS EXISTED.

HINT: REMOVAL OF ADDITIONAL COMMENTS REDUCES PARSING TIME.

TwoSpoons · October 25, 2023, 2:05am

Editing SPICE macro models is simple enough, and something you really should learn to do. From time to time you will find there are errors in manufacturers published models, or they don’t quite work properly with your particular flavor of SPICE simulator. Being able to debug and modify these simple text files is a useful skill to have.

Charles11 · January 30, 2024, 7:16am

Hi
I am implementing wear sensor using NCV20062 using KiCAD, I can not able to simulate this model, it shows the error, even I used for .lib file for this component. how to do the simulation using .lib file for kiCAD

glenenglish · January 30, 2024, 7:24am

My 2c.
I think Kicad should have stuck to SCH and PCB. There are plenty of good simulators that are free. and you can export netlists from KICAD into your favourite simulator…