Problem with PPA Install KiCad V5.0.2

Software
1

I was trying to install kicad 5.0.2. from PPA 18.04LTS. On the PPA site there was the following install Info.

sudo add-get-repository ppa:js-reynaud/kicad-5
sudo apt update
sudo apt install kicad

The install did go smooth, no errors. I am comparing what I get after running the Windows installer (same Kicad version). I think I made some mistakes.

  • “Help/Getting started” has nothing, only “not found” error. After sudo apt install kicad-doc-en Kicad opens a file manager with a html file marked. I expected the page in firefox. How can I change that? The page opens fine by double clicking it in the file manager.
  • “File/New/Project from Template…” was empty. After sudo apt install kicad-libraries it was still empty. The templates only appeard after sudo apt install kicad-templates. I expected that it would had been installed with kicad-libraries but it seems it didn’t.
  • The KiCad Homepage/Ubuntu suggested to intall demos with sudo apt install kicad-demo. But after that hey can not be seen anywhere in the GUI. After some time I found them in /usr/share/kicad/demos. How is a normal user supported to find those? And how am I supposed to work with them - sudo copy them to the home directory and change all file permissions from the command line?

Windows got me fully configured and ready to go. Why not in Ubuntu? Tests were done on a standard installation of Xubuntu 18.04.

Nowhere in google I read about similar problems. Did on other Ubuntu systems all above install and configure correctly?

2

Maybe @jsreynaud has some time to answer this. In general, packaging is done by individuals for different platforms and it’s not coordinated. Nobody tells what should be packaged and how. It’s natural to expect similar behavior on different platforms but unfortunately it won’t happen.

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3

Well, that is fine and I am aware about that. Its just that I would not think that with the given description this is expeceted behaviour. At the launchpad site I could not ask questions, so I came here.

I would think what I got is not the desired way envisoned by the package designer. Either I made some installation error or there is a description mismatch…

4

On my Debian / Buster box it’s similar.
To get KiCad complete I had to install the english documentation and 3D libraries, and maybe some others, separately.
My best guess is that if you install with apt, that it is assumed you have basic knowledge of working with apt, and I don’t really mind. What I did find pretty irritating is that during a presentation on a funeral a few years ago, the presentation shut down because windows needed to do an update for a printer driver. Maybe someday computers wil finally do what we expect them to do instead of what we tell them to do, but that might introduce it’s own problems.

Installing for Ubuntu:
http://www.kicad.org/download/ubuntu/

The KiCad schematic library and docs are in separate packages. If you want either of these install kicad-library and kicad-doc respectively.

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What my apt thinks of KiCad packages:

paul@dualcore:~$ apt search kicad
Sorting… Done
Full Text Search… Done
horizon-eda/testing 0.20181108-1+b1 amd64
EDA layout and schematic application
kicad/testing,now 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 amd64 [installed]
Electronic schematic and PCB design software
kicad-common/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Old common files used by kicad - Transitional Package
kicad-demos/testing,now 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all [installed]
Demo projects for kicad
kicad-doc-ca/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Catalan)
kicad-doc-de/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (German)
kicad-doc-en/testing,now 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all [installed]
Kicad help files (English)
kicad-doc-es/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Spanish)
kicad-doc-fr/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (French)
kicad-doc-id/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Indonesian)
kicad-doc-it/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Italian)
kicad-doc-ja/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Japanese)
kicad-doc-nl/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Dutch)
kicad-doc-pl/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Polish)
kicad-doc-ru/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Russian)
kicad-doc-zh/testing 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all
Kicad help files (Chinese)
kicad-footprints/testing,now 5.0.2-1 all [installed,automatic]
Footprint symbols for KiCad’s Pcbnew
kicad-libraries/testing,now 5.0.2+dfsg1-1 all [installed,automatic]
Virtual package providing common used libraries by kicad
kicad-packages3d/testing,now 5.0.2-1 all [installed]
3D models for 3D viewer in KiCad’s Pcbnew and Footprint Editor
kicad-symbols/testing,now 5.0.2-1 all [installed,automatic]
Schematic symbols for KiCad’s Eeschema
kicad-templates/testing,now 5.0.2-1 all [installed,automatic]
Project templates for KiCad
pcb-rnd/testing 2.1.1-1 amd64
Modular Printed Circuit Board layout tool

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5

Cool. Did not use the apt search command before. Makes like a lot easier. Thx.

However, it does not tell you what packages are in ‘kicad’ but more. So if I use the command with a repository-only machine there is a very short list of packages. On a machine with the PPA installed there is a huge long list with all potential packages in the repository (includes the debug symbols). Those were definetively not installed with 'sudo apt install kicad".

as @ eelik pointed out before, the Website/Ubuntu concerned the repository packages. So the PPA packages may behave differently.

But anyway, maybe there is one thing you can help me out with. How did the demos install on Debian? I can not really believe the /usr/share/kicad/demos is the proper location for them.

6

apt search is a text search (name / description). The last line of “apt search kicad” apparently found the string “kicad” in pcb-rnd, but I do not think pcb-rnd has anything to do with KiCad.

The demo’s wre indeed installed in /usr/share/kicad/demos, and I copied them to my own ~/projects/kicad/ folder. Linux are by default multi-user systems, and therefore the demo’s should be accessible by all users. You can probably instruct apt to install packagages for a single user only but I never bothered with those details.

For more you can type: “man apt” or “man dpkg” on a command line.

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7

If you want the Windows behavior and get the kitchen sink with your KiCad, use apt-get install --install-suggests kicad

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8

Well, typically software within Linux distributions is split of into more granularity packages. KiCad isn’t an exception here and there is no reason why it should be.

You should now your preferred tool for package installations within your distribution, no matter if you prefer a graphical tool or you want to use a CLI tool.

Further more the Debian based distributions provide various controlling elements within the packaging. You can have depending packages your desired package you want to install will need (e.g. some GTK+ libraries for the UI to work). All packages listed here will get installed automatically, nothing you need to by done extra on your side.

Next there are packages that are recommended, thiss are packages the original package doesn’t really need to do it’s job but mostly useful for the user to get a really good experience while using the software. These are the packages kicad-libraries or kicad-demos for example.

And the way down there are also packages that are “just” suggested. In this category are going all packages that are a bit nice to have but not really needed for an enhanced usability. Here we have the package kicad-packages3d and also all documentation packages like kicad-doc-*.

If you want to read more about these categories and the relations between have a look at the policy from Debian. https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html

Normally you will get automatically get installed all packages that are recommended within a package as this is the default in most of the distributions that are derivates from Debian. But think further, on a server such recommendations are mostly useless and eating just space and sometimes additional brain from the admin as the more packages you have installed the more potential problem you can get.

As written partially by other posters, get in touch with your system, know the tools it’s providing foe package management, this is really important if you want have fun with your system.

As I’m a friend of a CLI the apt command tells me mostly all I need to know. Note the fields Depends, Recommends and Suggested. You will see some similar information also in the graphical tool synaptics.

$ apt show kicad
Package: kicad
Version: 5.1.0~rc1+20190224+dfsg1-1
Status: install ok installed
Priority: optional
Section: electronics
Maintainer: Debian Electronics Team <pkg-electronics-devel@alioth-lists.debian.net>
Installed-Size: 94.9 MB
Depends: libngspice0 (>= 28), python-wxgtk3.0 (>= 3.0.2.0+dfsg-7~), python3 (<< 3.8), python3 (>= 3.7~), python3:any, libc6 (>= 2.27), libcairo2 (>= 1.6.0), libcurl4 (>= 7.16.2), libfreeimage3, libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:3.0), libgl1, libglew2.1 (>= 1.12.0), libglu1-mesa | libglu1, libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), liboce-foundation11, liboce-modeling11, liboce-ocaf-lite11, liboce-ocaf11, liboce-visualization11, libpixman-1-0 (>= 0.15.14), libpython3.7 (>= 3.7.0), libsm6, libssl1.1 (>= 1.1.0), libstdc++6 (>= 7), libwxbase3.0-0v5 (>= 3.0.4+dfsg), libwxgtk3.0-gtk3-0v5 (>= 3.0.4+dfsg), libx11-6, libxext6
Recommends: kicad-libraries, kicad-demos, xsltproc
Suggests: extra-xdg-menus, kicad-doc-ca | kicad-doc-de | kicad-doc-en | kicad-doc-es | kicad-doc-fr | kicad-doc-id | kicad-doc-it | kicad-doc-ja | kicad-doc-pl | kicad-doc-ru | kicad-doc-zh, kicad-packages3d
Breaks: kicad-common (<< 5.0.0~rc1+dfsg1-1~)
Replaces: kicad-common (<< 5.0.0~rc1+dfsg1-1~)
Homepage: http://www.kicad.org
Download-Size: unknown
APT-Manual-Installed: yes
APT-Sources: /var/lib/dpkg/status
Description: Electronic schematic and PCB design software
 Kicad is a suite of programs for the creation of printed circuit boards.
 It includes a schematic editor, a PCB layout tool, support tools and a
 3D viewer to display a finished & fully populated PCB.
 .
 Kicad is made up of 5 main components:
 .
  * kicad - project manager
  * eeschema - schematic editor
  * pcbnew - PCB editor
  * gerbview - GERBER viewer
  * cvpcb - footprint selector for components
 .
 Libraries:
  * Both eeschema and pcbnew have library managers and editors for their
    components and footprints
  * You can easily create, edit, delete and exchange library items
  * Documentation files can be associated with components, footprints and key
    words, allowing a fast search by function
  * Very large libraries are available for schematic components and footprints
  * Most components have corresponding 3D models

N: There are 2 additional records. Please use the '-a' switch to see them.

It’s not a downside that you need to install more than a package kicad, at least for me and the majority of people that using a Debian based system. And an additional note to the package names, so far I know these names are equal on all major Linux distributions.

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9

Thanks, thats good to know.

Well, most other packages I used install stuff in the users home dir. Multiple installs are not a problem if each user does the installation again - the root parts are never altered and could be overwritten mutliple times without effects.
I just think is sad to see software installation more difficult in Linux than in Windows. The Linux mechanism are greate and it should be vice versa. Most windows people are surprised how quickly you can install even large packages with a single line. An just start using them!
I can remember my first steps in Linux and no way I would have found those demos or even manage to copy them with correct permissions.

Usually I do ‘tldr apt’

10

What would you want Linux to do if you have experimented or maybe heavily modified one of the demo’s and KiCad wants to update the demo’s during an update?

Just putting the demo’s in a read-only place for all to see / copy makes it simple for the packagers. Linux updates should also run without nagging the user with questions about locales, optional parts, user settings or any of the other 20 questions I had to click for each program on a Windoze box. Just make a simple list in a script with 20 or so most used programs and run it on a clean linux install and you’re almost back to a fully working system in 10 minutes.

dpkg can do much more, such as making lists of installed packages / programs.
I wish I learned all this when I was still young and thought computer maintenance was fun. But now my computer is much more a box to do things with.

11

Thanks for your good explanation. I’ve not grown up in the Linux world and naturally may have a different perspective for some points. One is that one should take are to make things understandable for people who are new to the topic. That does not mean to start at the basics all the time.

But how can a new user of kicad know what packages are required or not? Not at all, I would think. So as you say the knowledgeable people should make things as error free as possible. This is either a good description or a fool proof procedure. To make a documentation package where the “Getting started” document is included and make that merely “suggested” is a great example. Who would you think is actually reading this document when not the first time user? How self explantory is Kicad without any such document?
Also the “apt list” / “apt show” texts do not really tell me that I can not run a arduino blink example tutorial without any libraries. The do not even warn me that the 3D packages are actually required for useful 3D view but are in a separate lib because they have grown to a GB size.
As I am aware threre are “Metapackages” or “virtual packages” which could help to make things easy but still configurable for the well versed.

But sorry for the rant, basically I have no problem to install serveral packages, i will just put them in a script and use that. Its more about have the important information up front, and not searching around to scrape them together that I sometimes find a bit tiering.

In this case, the demo install seems to be a Linux package bug. But one thing not working is left:

  • the documentation would not show up in a browser but in a file manger. The packages are there, there must be another issue. The GUI does not seem to have a setting for that.

Currently my PPA “install” of working kicad on Ubuntu is

sudo add-get-repository ppa:js-reynaud/kicad-5
sudo apt update
sudo apt install kicad
sudo apt install kicad-doc-en
sudo apt install kicad-libraries
sudo apt install kicad-templates
sudo apt install kicad-symbols
sudo apt install kicad-footprints
sudo apt install kicad-packages3d
sudo apt install kicad-demo
mkdir -p ~/kicad/examples
cp -r /usr/share/kicad/demos ~/kicad/examples
Leaving me with non working Help/Documentation

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12

What would you want Linux to do if you have experimented or maybe heavily modified one of the demo’s and KiCad wants to update the demo’s during an update?

Well, for example Code::Blocks has a feature where you could edit wizards. Their sources are stored in the root area as well. When you try to edit them with the GUI, the code will be copied to your local CodeBlocks settings folder. The local folder takes preference for execution, so you will always be able to run you version. But the original remains untouched. That should also cover the update issues.

I noted that on Windows Kicad also stores the examples in the program folder. Up to now I tought Kicad’s origin was Linux, but when it had been Windows its one of those things Windows developers do not think about a lot, so it would be an artifact.

Just make a simple list in a script with 20 or so most used programs and run it on a clean linux install and you’re almost back to a fully working system in 10 minutes.

Looks like I need a script here as well. I’d rather have a one-liner for the global install srcipt, though

Being very comfortable with puttting my stuff anywhere on Windows for years I have to admit that the Linux approach makes much more sense and avoids a whole stack of issues all together as you say. So why not make use of it?

I wish I learned all this when I was still young and thought computer maintenance was fun. But now my >computer is much more a box to do things with.

:slight_smile: Funny you should say that. I am with in Linux for 2 years now. It took 3 approaches which failed because of just horrible usability. Today an fully agree that every of the hundrds of hours I have spent by now is not wasted. I should have started when I was young. Gladly its not too late

13

You could try:

sudo apt install kicad-doc-en

instead of:

sudo apt install kicad-docs-en

With windows you usually start half randomly clicking on buttons in the hope you get where you want to get, and often is wors mostly. With Linux it’s more reading what to do and then do it. Installation instructions for different KiCad versions is pretty clear on the KiCad site I guess.

Also:
/usr/share/kicad is readable by regular users.
No need to use sudo.
And if you copy as a regular user the rights of the files also get changed to that user, and there is no need to run chown afterwards.

14

Your are right. Sorry that was a typo (bad typer transfering from offline PC).

Good point. Your are right. Corrected that as well…

15

Wanted to try that, but it includes the 3d packages and totals 5.2GB, need to free some space first. At least it seams to get everything installed in a one-liner, so thanks for the hint.

16

I don’t see the point you want to make. It’s the responsibility of the potential user that needs to know what the software is about and how to use the preferred package manager! For more or happened problems there are existing user forums like this one here. Your current view comes from a wrong direction in my eyes.

That’s not the job of a package description to do such things.

Why should they do that? If you are working with KiCad it’s quite obvious you will need 3d models if you want to see some shiny 3d graphic. In the Debian package there is a hint about the huge size of this package. If you are using PPAs there is even more the knowledge thing you know what you are doing. PPAs can be nice and can be bad, for me they are more bad because most people that using Ubuntu and PPAs don’t really have understood why normally software pulled from one archive is the most secure download users can get. Have you really checked the the key for the PPA from JS Renaud? :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry no, it’s not, they are demos, nothing more. You can even open them within KiCad from the original folder and save the files partially if needed. Or simply copy one example to your local folder. I don’t expect you will modify all examples within the schematics and the pcb design.

Your mime setup is different to your exception than. In short, you need to change the associated action for the file extension. And this is done the same way as in Windows. Right click on the file and change “Open with”. This “problem” has been solved already a few times by using a searching machine within your browser. :slight_smile:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/267077/html-files-not-opening-in-browser

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17

good feedback. Please allow me some comments

I would agree for the typical Linux user 10 years ago. Today I think times have changed. For example I have a 70 year old guy running Ubuntu maschine I set up. And he is doing fine. Lets ignore the fact that he would not be the typical Kicad user for a minute. This guy is able to use the software center and press a button to install things. He knows nothing of what you say and (imho rightfully) expects an application that is basically working telling him where its limited. Its the same packages beneath the gui. My point is the ease of use for him in the end is good for all of us.

I agree its a bad example to take literally. But its the same as with software comments. Good comments cost almost nothing. Still almost noone is writing them.

The hint is for the libs. The tools with all libs uses 500MB. The packages alone have 5GB. If the libs were worth a hint, would’t you think the packages would deserve one as well? I never had any software shipped with 5GB of datapackage in my life before. When I downloaded the archive I could not believe it.

Actually I did, but only because I had to download and convert it manually. But your have a good point. No easier way to distribute a trojan but to pack it into some obsure open source no one bothers to review.

I would not invest in any software when there are not examples. This often gets forgotten: Open Source still asks a high price: you time. Usually lots of it. I do not know Kicad well enough yet, but so far the whole things makes a really good impression, usability seems to have been carfully considered or improved. From a software design perspective the way exmples are included/presented does not fit to the rest I am seeing. Thats why I am asking so stubbornly. imho this is a bug or a terrible design. Try to create a netlist of an example netlist. It will pop a window into your face where to put it. Thats most confusing (to a newbie at least). I cancelled it, felt this was not supposted to happen. There are heaps of people who will take things like that as an argument why Linux will never be an alternative to Windows. Cheap win for Windows.

But if that’s a MIME issue, why does a double click on the file opens it firefox?

18

You know probably the following sentence and why I can’t agree on that what you have written based on the matter? :wink:

Make it idiot proof and you will get a netter idiot.

The comparison you make isn’t working and wont ever.

Once again, not the problem of the packager. Sure 5GB is really a lot. But I don’t understand why people really complain about that. Every installation of a full blow AutoCad workstation is of similar size and where is the problem by really really cheap SSD drives today. How big are computer games on newer days? And from a technical side there is no need to really install 3d models, they are nice to have. All you need is the DRC.

I don’t think so. The same “issue” will happen on windows but mostly as you don’t understand the working principles of the software or more mostly you don’t have read (enough) the documentation. KiCad isn’t a easy tools and wont ever be. And examples are just examples, if you don’t know what they are showing or what you can or should do with them they are mostly useless. The demos are added to show how a PCB or schematic can look like. And quite all screenshots for the documentation are mode by the theses demos.

Most of the things you complain about might be getting better if you try to change that! All parts of KiCad are free from a license perspective and also in terms of the ownership of the various parts, there is no company behind the scenes. But the counter part is, the whole project is living from people who are contributing to it! If you want a better description for the installation of the PPA and the steps on this you should improve this. All you need to do is change the content of https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-website/blob/master/content/download/ubuntu.adoc

Don’t get me wrong, people have decided on their own to use KiCad, and I’ve done this exactly because the software is a FOSS project. And I know that not all is perfect. But I disagree on some blanket states that Linux isn’t a real alternative for Windows. It’s exactly the freedom of choice that I can use my Linux system like I want to use it. And I like to know what my system is doing, but this isn’t working if I wouldn’t invest time to understand my system.

Because you have somehow a MIME problem I guess. :wink: I can’t say much about this as I haven’t ever seen this problem.

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19

Would be a great thing to only have nett idiots, woudln’t it :slight_smile:

You are right the CAD stuff is really >5GB. I am sorry and need to correct myself. I did handle larger packs before…
Well, I think we have different optinon on what you can call an application. When you compare it with a house construction. You can clearly move in as soon as the basement is built. I won’t before the root is on and the carpets are in. Its a question of perspective and current situtation.

Well, except that in the Windows install they work as expected.

That argument is the same for any item in Linux. Of course. But its and argument usually means “I do not want to argue any more”. I am talking about newbie users, typically non-programmes. Here the argument does not work, unfortunately.

But although its an enjoyable discussion, I have to admit most ot it got away from what the initial post was about. Maye the forum is not the best medium for discussions like that :blush:

Hm. Mind if I ask if you were running Ubuntu as well, by chance? Thing is that this is a quite fresh install from the iso. Other Apps open their docs in the browser OK. Really seems a strange problem.

20

I’m using Kubuntu 14.04. Kicad help manuals are opened fom the Kicad menu with Firefox in my installation.

I use synaptic to install kicad. It gives me a clean sight of the packages I need. I do not install some packages as kicad-libraries, kicad-footprints, kicad-symbols or kicad-packages3d nor all the kicad-locale-xx. Lots of MB not downloaded/installed.