Odd issue with text on PCBnew Kicad 8.0.2

[shoka]

I’ve encountered this issue a couple of time, and I do not know what fixed it previously.

Placing text or text in a text box, the text is mirrored.

I think the issue is triggered by (mistakenly) placing text on the b side copper layer.

That text is correctly mirrored, but as the text should have been on the front panel screen print, I’ve deleted it and attempted to repeat the text on the front screen print layer.

Unfortunately the mirrored setting seems to stick and all subsequent attempts to place text is similarly mirrored.

That setting persists even after restarting Kicad, and even after restarting the laptop.

There is a suspicious looking “backwards” “R” button on the text box, that looks like it possibly should switch between normal and reversed text. I’ve never tried it when the odd behavior is not present, so I do not know that that is its function, but It does not seem to have any effect when the issue is encountered.

I’m far from sure that this issue is anything more than user error, but any suggestions for resolving it gratefully accepted.

Cheers harry

[paulvdh]

What is a:

@shoka

front panel screen print

I assume you mean the F.Silkscreen layer.

There is no need to:

@shoka

I’ve deleted it and …

When you edit the text properties, you can change all properties of the text. The backwards R is indeed for reverse / mirrored text, but that is not the function you need. You only need to change the layer (which is also a part of the text properties). All text on the Back side layers always appears as mirrored, because you are looking through the PCB in KiCad). (That is, unless the PCB is flipped, but that is another topic).

[jmk]

@shoka

I’m far from sure that this issue is anything more than user error, but any suggestions for resolving it gratefully accepted.

Did you select the correct layer before placing the text?

[davidsrsb]

Is it related to this issue and fix?

PCB_IO_KICAD_SEXPR_PARSER::parseEDA_TEXT(): ensure texts are not mirrored...

[shoka]

Probably did not explain my issue properly.

Having realized that I had put the text on the backside copper, I adjusted the properties to move it to the front-side screen print. It changed colour appropriately, but remained reversed.

So I deleted that text entry, recreated the text entry on the correct front side screen print, which again created an appropriate coloured entry, but still reversed.

So I shut down the PCB editor, restarted it and repeated the test. Same result.

So I rebooted the laptop and tested again. Same result.

This morning (after the laptop has been shut down overnight) I repeated the test

Outcome

There is a difference in behavior with my testing this morning After the above test, on the properties box, the reverse R button functions and reverses the text. That also seems to have reset whatever toggle was flipped by my initial error, and now the text box functions as expected.

I don’t understand the details of the fault report, so I cannot say if it refers to this behavior.

Harry

[shoka]

It may be of relevance, the laptop is running Linux Mint

And is running the Cinnamon desktop.
Harry

[hsjmk]

When you add text (text tool and click on pcb location) in pcbnew the mirror setting (mirrored R button) is set or not according to the preselected active layer.
If you ignore the active layer and set the layer in the text dialog there is no automatic switching of the mirrored state. So you better first pre-select the active layer.
Can you confirm that if you preselect the layer where you want to place the text on (and then you don’t need to change the layer drop-down in the text dialog) the text is always correct?
At any state you can “move” text between layers but then you need to manually take care of the mirror option.

[paulvdh]

There is an odd issue with the backwards R ,reverse / mirror option.

In my opinion, it should always relate to the result on the physical PCB. However, this R button is on for all the back layers. This results in text appearing in mirror image on the monitor, but looking normally when you flip the PCB and look at it from the rear side.

In my opinion, the text on the back side should look reversed when this button is off. Because you are looking though the PCB. I don’t know if this is the intended behavior, or if I should consider it a bug.

[shoka]

The initial issue was that when entering the text, the b side copper was unintentionally selected, and pasted onto the board… The text was displayed in mirror, correctly I believe for B side copper layer text, but that was not my intention, so Ho hum, stupid boy, re selected the text, and changed the layer to front side screen print.

The text colouring changed to reflect front side layer, but the text remained mirrored.

Tried the reverse text button, got no change in the situation.

Not what I expected, but OK deleted that text entirely, re entered the text in a new text box with the front screen print layer properly selected, text is still mirrored. Tried the mirror text button to reverse the text, no effect from that button.

Repeated the attempt several times without correcting the problem, all attempts to add text to the front side screen print either with text boxes or plain text resulted in mirrored text.

Tried shutting down the PCB editor and restarting it, same symptoms. Any attempt to place text on the front side screen print resulted in mirrored text.

Shut down and restarted the laptop without improving anything.

Remembered having this issue once before, vaguely, so posted a query to the forum, gave up in disgust and went to bed. Never found what triggered it before, went away eventually.

Helpful hints in the forum this morning, but most seem to assume that I’m not understanding the normal operation of the text tool. (Entirely possible, but this is not by any means my firt brush with Kicad), but I booted the system anew, opened a new text box ensured that the font side screen and pasted it to the board. Mirror text.

Whatever state was corrupted by my initial ham-fisted response, was preserved over several restarts and reboots.

However, experimenting further this morning, the reverse R button did work. as expected, returned the text to correct orientation, and the problem disappeared, I can again paste normal text to the front side screen print layer.

My test case also went away
Harry

[mf_ibfeew]

In my opinion, the text on the back side should look reversed when this button is off. Because you are looking through the PCB. I don’t know if this is the intended behavior, or if I should consider it a bug.

As this behaviour is the same in v6/v7/v8 and the same as in other CAD tools (I know Altium CS, eagle, designspark) I think this is the intended behaviour.

[jmk]

Hi @shoka

I too run 8.0.2 on Mint 21.3 Cinnamon so I tried to copy your actions. (my comments are in italic)
I hope these are the correct sequence of your actions.

Place text on back copper.
Use Text Properties to change layer to Front Silk. Text remains reversed.
This is as expected.
Use R button to reverse text
The R button only reverses after the OK button is selected.
Delete reversed text in Text Properties and type in new text. Result is reversed text.
This is as expected.
Select R then OK. Text reverses to normal.
This is as expected
Delete text, close Text Properties, create new text on F.Silk. Text not reversed.
This is as expected

[hsjmk]

@paulvdh

In my opinion, it should always relate to the result on the physical PCB. However, this R button is on for all the back layers. This results in text appearing in mirror image on the monitor, but looking normally when you flip the PCB and look at it from the rear side.

In my opinion, the text on the back side should look reversed when this button is off. Because you are looking though the PCB. I don’t know if this is the intended behavior, or if I should consider it a bug.

As all actions are WYSIWYG this is a minor flaw. But I think you are correct. But what about other elements ? All coordinates and positions are calculated from one point. I think the current implementation is one of two possible ways - depends on the POV.

@shoka So this is solved, right? Please close this by selecting a solution. Thx

[shoka]

jmk

shoka

19h

I too run 8.0.2 on Mint 21.3 Cinnamon so I tried to copy your actions. (my comments are in italic)
I hope these are the correct sequence of your actions.

Place text on back copper.
Use Text Properties to change layer to Front Silk. Text remains reversed.
This is as expected.

OK so far.

Use R button to reverse text
The R button only reverses after the OK button is selected.

Delete reversed text in Text Properties and type in new text. Result is reversed text.
This is as expected.

OK up to here.

Delete the initially entered text.
Open a new text item.
Set text properties in new box to front screen print layer.
enter new test.
apply the text
Text is reversed.

That is, at least, not intuitive to me, selecting reversed text is automatic when putting text on the reverse side.
Why then s that setting retained indefinitely when you then put text on the front side?

The implication is that once reverse text has been placed on the board, by putting text on the back side of the board , the reversed text setting is retained until reversed text is placed on the front side of the board, and then reversed by reopening the text item, and selecting the reverse R button.

If that is how its expected to work, that explains the Issue I’ve had.

Select R then OK. Text reverses to normal.
This is as expected
Delete text, close Text Properties, create new text on F.Silk. Text not reversed.
This is as expected

Thanks for the info.

[mf_ibfeew]

selecting reversed text is automatic when putting text on the reverse side. Why then is that setting retained indefinitely when you then put text on the front side?

That setting is not retained indefinitely, at least it should not.
The “automagic” setting of the “Reverse” button depends on the actual active layer on the right side appearance panel. The layer which is active at the activation time of the text/textbox command is relevant and determines the initial state of the "“Reverse” button.
Frontside layers → R not activated
Backside layers → R activated
So setting the wanted layer prior to the text/textbox command (with the apearance panel) should give you the correct state of the R button.

If you change (later) the layer inside the text/textbox properties dialog this has no automatic effect on the R button.

[jmk]

@shoka

Delete the initially entered text.
Open a new text item.
Set text properties in new box to front screen print layer.
enter new test.
apply the text
Text is reversed.

Correct @shoka

This is because the editing is being done in the Properties Box that belongs to the original text that was placed on the back side of the board. So far, in your description, the text has been moved to the front of the board and its content (the words or letters) have been changed. Reversing has yet to be made.
Remember, we’re still editing a text that was originally placed on the back side.

If the text was originally placed on the Front side, then edited to the back, I would expect to have to reverse that text to view it correctly after flipping the board.

Those are my thoughts.

[shoka]

No, incorrect.

I deleted the text on the back of the board, and the text on the front of the board and started again from scratch, going to the T icon, opening a new properties box, setting it to front side text and pasting it to the board. Reversed text was placed.

The reverse setting was present on any new text entry, and on text box and plain text entries.
I spent some time investigating the behavior, and as far as I can tell removed every trace of the original misplaced text, as an obvious means to undo whatever stuck state was causing the issue.

I then shut down the application and the eventually the system without getting rid of the “stuck” reversed text.

The last screenshot at the top of this thread is the effect of opening a new text box after a system restart the following morning and the resulting effect when the text was placed.

I believe the “stuck” state was only cleared after I pasted that text box as per the screenshots, and then messing about in frustration reopened the text box properties for that entry, and randomly tried the “R” button, which then reversed the front panel text, the state returned go normal and has behaved as expected ever since.

That R button had no discernible effect on any of my previous trials with new text entries and text boxes, I have no idea what was different in this case.

I’ve no idea if any action of mine triggered the stuck state or if it was triggered by a race condition. or an issue with the Cinnamon desktop.

Some of the entries on this thread suggest that it is like that by design. I’m dubious.

The only reason I’ve left this thread open is that seems to me that there is an issue somewhere, as retaining that state through my increasingly brutal attempts to unstick it suggests that there is an underlying problem.

I’m doubtful I can recreate the issue, and will not do that on a working design, but may look at creating a test case and seeing If I can provoke the issue again. Unless it recurs under more controlled conditions, or an irreversible toggling of the reverse text state that survives complete restart of the system triggers any thoughts from someone who understands the Kicad code, further progress is unlikely.

Harry

[hsjmk]

@shoka

going to the T icon, opening a new properties box, setting it to front side text and pasting it to the board. Reversed text was placed.

The reverse setting was present on any new text entry, and on text box and plain text entries.

If you had to change the layer in the text/text box dialog then you manually changed the text to a different layer as the current active layer. The reverse text state was set from the active layer. This is copied to the layer field in the text dialog and the reverse state is set from its front/back state. We tried to explain this several times. IMO this is solved.

Can you confirm that the text box is always preset with layer and front/back state from the current active layer? This is how the current active layer is marked:

[shoka]

I’ve tried to reproduce the original issue without success.

The text boxes now behave as normal and as expected.

I have no ideas on how I got the system into that strange state, and I have tried all the possible stupid moves I can think of that I may have done initially to get it into that state.

I still believe there is a bug in their somewhere, since the behavior I had was clearly odd, and very definitely different to the normal operation that I’m seeing since I managed to get out of the stuck state. However without a predictable reproducer, this will not go anywhere.

Feel free to close this thread. I’m not inclined to mark it as resolved, since I’ve had a similar issue once before on a much older release of Kicad, far enough back that I’ve long forgotten what release that was.

It behaves as though a state variable for forward reverse text gets corrupted somehow, so that the normal state of the text becomes the reverse state. That corruption is preserved through system restarts, and the deletion of the original text box, and applies to all text boxes subsequently opened.

Unfortunately I did not think to test of the fault carried over into a new file, I suspect not, since the only state carried over between reboots was the board file itself, so presumably the file carried the corrupted state.

When in the not corrupted state, the text behavior is exactly as expected.

Harry

[hsjmk]

From your first post:

@shoka

There is a suspicious looking “backwards” “R” button on the text box, that looks like it possibly should switch between normal and reversed text. I’ve never tried it when the odd behavior is not present, so I do not know that that is its function, but It does not seem to have any effect when the issue is encountered.

We tried to explain several times. You didn’t answer the questions around the principle of active layer. Your description seems to be related to the previously selected active layer.