Need better monitor

Community
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Normally I do not post screenshots of my full desktop.
I do not know about KDE Plasma, but my Linux Mint box has no trouble with dual or even triple monitors. I can just mix and mash in the monitor settings.

My current PC is an old i7-860 (Yep, first gen.) I got for free with some radeon video card from probably also that era. I honestly do not know what videocard is in this PC. I never bothered to pay much attention to it, it just works.
A bit of poking says:

paul@medion:~$ lspci
…
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Juniper PRO [Radeon HD 5750]
…

when working with Pcbnew, it is usually maximized on the right monitor, and the left is a mishmash of other stuff I want to keep handy. From web browsers to datasheets and schematics. If you select a footprint in Pcbnew, then the schematic instantly pans to that location, (and also the other way around) which is very handy during initial component placement. The black ares on the left are non existent areas, because the portrait monitor is higher then the landscape monitor.

image
image3120×1920 1.09 MB

My HP LP2465 monitors have a resolution of 1920x1200 and a measured diagonal of the display without bezel of 610mm.
Pitch is:

520/1920 = 0.2708333333333333
Which is a bit coarse.
A pitch of 0.22 would be nearly optimal, and when pixels get below 0.18mm it starts becoming a gimmick (you start scaling text and even icons because they are to small otherwise).

@craftyjon
Have you ever tried putting one monitor in portrait?
520mm/ 2560 = 0.20mm pitch which is indeed close to the minimum usable pixel size. I would like a 4k monitor myself, but it has to be 107cm (43"). 4k for a 86cm (32") results in too small pixels. Such a monitor would be about similar in width as your current dual monitor, but with more vertical pixels.

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I can run dual screen from my laptop. Obviously an integrated monitor and HDMI port. Other’s can chime in here but my ASUS flatscreen was replaced only because I wanted a bigger screen. My current ASUS is probably a decade old now. That’s why I support going with as much as you can afford. I think these things last longer than the old crt monitors so you might have to live with it for awhile. 27 inch seemed HUGE when I got it but I couldn’t see going back now. CAD programs were the main reason I upgraded to 4 core AMD. Having a few CAD programs open was bringing my old system to its’ knees.

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@Russ
Do you already have an idea in which direction you want to go?

Your old PC is very likely to be used in a dual monitor setup, and it’s a cheap option to get more pixels (especially with a second hand monitor)
(Look at your video card, how many outputs does it have?)

If you want to go to 4k, it pretty much means you need a whole new PC & more modern video hardware.

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@eelik, ATM my nose is 40 inches from the middle of my monitor’s screen. I don’t see that changing unless I upgrade my furniture.

@hermit, yes a 27 in. diagonal monitor would seem absolutely humongous to me.

@paulvdh, thank you for taking time to clue me in on the newer displayport video hardware standard. I guess it is time for me to see if I need to upgrade my computer to support it or just my video card.

$ lspci | grep AGP
russ@solydk1:~$ lspci | grep VGA
00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7560D]
russ@solydk1:~$ lspci | grep video

@craftyjon, thank you for posting the two images from your dual monitors. You have given me a great deal to think about.

Friends, is there a one-to-one correspondence between video cards (or whatever they are called today) and monitors? By that I mean, to simultaneously display different images on two different monitors, must you have two different video cards in your computer?
Or is another technique used ?

I think I have an AGP video card in my computer, but I don’t remember what kind.

I don’t know what 4K video means yet. Is it for HDTV or for computers, or for both ?

25

Modern video cards generally can each output to 2-3 monitors (some higher-end cards can do 4+)

You just have to check that the ports will be compatible. Some cheaper video cards have one analog (VGA) output, and one or more digital (HDMI, displayport, DVI, etc) outputs. Modern monitors are starting to drop support for analog (VGA), but generally they have flexible support for all the various digital formats.

It’s just a marketing term for a particular display resolution. Most often it means 3840x2160 pixels, but like all marketing terms, companies are free to use it to mean something different…

Radeon HD 7560D

You will have to look at your physical computer to see what ports it has (since the information from lspci isn’t enough to tell you what port configuration the maker of your computer or graphics card decided to put on), but this chip in general is capable of driving multiple screens with no problem.

26

If your videocard has more then one monitor plug (and it probably has), then it is extremely likely that it can be used with at least two monitors at the same time.

Some older video cards with 3 plugs, support only two of the plugs simultaneously. Wit my previous video card I had to choose between two desktop monitors, or one monitor and a beamer for watching movies.

The best way for you is probably to lend an extra monitor somewhere and just plug it in. Monitors dying from too high frequencies was a thing in the 90ies with analog VGA CRT’s, but not with LCD’s. Most LCD’s (which have real pixels) work reasonably well with an analog VGA signal, but some don’t. If you use a VGA cable, then always pus the right buttons on your monitor to order it to sync with the VGA input timing.

“4k” is a generic term for any monitor (PC or TV screen, beamer, etc) that has a horizontal resolution approaching 4000 pixels, and usually includes 2x1920 = 3840.

A few years ago some marketing guy figured out that displays have more horizontal pixels then vertical pixels, and instead of the vertical resolution (576 lines for PAL, 720p, etc) they started using the horizontal resolution. Bigger numbers is more better.

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Mine says 27" on the box, and the tech spec’s say 68.47cm (which converts over to 26.95"). My measurement of the illuminated rectangle is also about 68.47cm. I say “about” because the lower corners are nearly black due to Windows’ menubar, and I’m using a tape measure which has a hook on the end.

Paul already got you the answer for DisplayPort. It’s a connector standard that is a bit nicer than HDMI. USB-C is trying to replace it, but that might be a few years off still.

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OK, so 27" was a gradual progression for me. I had monitors at 17", 19", 21", 24" and then finally 27". (Before you start thinking I’m buying all of these, they were from various employers who allowed me to buy monitors for my desk.) I can’t imagine going back from 27" nowadays. I might get a 24", but definitely not much smaller than that.

Here’s a screenshot of my usual KiCAD setup:

image
image5760×2160 1.72 MB

One thing to keep in mind between resolution and dimensions: While the PCB and the schematic look comically out of proportion, it doesn’t look that bad in person. That’s because the left screen is a 4k 27", while the right screen is 1080p 24".

Also, one of the things I only realized after getting my first 4k display (again at an employer), was that a 4k display can act like 2 1080p vertical displays. That is, 3840x2160 split down the middle becomes 1920x2160, which is still more pixels than 1080x1920 (1080 monitor in portrait orientation), so it serves dual purpose.

One caveat about the 4k display is that for some reason, there are several programs that don’t scale their menus and interfaces well, so you might end up squinting to read the titles and menus. (STM32CubeIDE, I’m looking at you!)

Also, a caveat about highly mismatched displays like I have: Windows doesn’t play well with the huge mismatch. It tries to accommodate the difference by scaling, so windows will look like the same physical size on both. But in the actual implementation, it’s a ripe mess. (That just means I need to buy another 4k monitor! But seriously, I’ll probably buy either a 4k 27" or a WQHD 27" to reduce the cost. )

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From that distance I’d say my 42" TV isn’t too large at all if there’s only one display, but FullHD is definitely way too low resolution. So it pretty much depends on whether you would actively use only one or two monitors. If you have only one, take as large monitor you can find with reasonable price (i.e. probably 27", max 32"). The resolution should be 4K (in practice 3840 x 2160) and that’s what they are anyway. It may look humongous at first but you will get used to it soon and don’t want to go back.

It’s different if you use two monitors, but I think 27" wouldn’t be too large for a primary monitor.

Just for the record, when I’m looking for such monitors they are from about 300 euros upwards. 4K UHD televisions are from 250 euros upwards but the smallest size for that price is 39". I would take a TV because I use it for movies and videos, too, and from longer distance, and KiCad is just a hobby on this setup. I agree with @qu1ck above that they have features which aren’t wanted or needed for computer work, but looking at the price and size real computer monitors don’t compete with them anyway. If someone needs a large display (39" and above) for longer distance TVs are super cheap with reasonable quality.

2 Likes
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@eelik I highly recommend you compare a 4k TV and 4k monitor of similar sizes next to one another. You will see how much better the image on the monitor is because it doesn’t do any useless “sharpening” or “dynamic contrast” or whatever the eff the TVs force on you these days. On cheap TVs it’s literally impossible to get rid of those “improvements”.
And then also compare how much more input lag the TV has. It may or may not matter for your use case but gamers and people working with 3d need fast responsive panels. TVs are also incapable of >60hz at high resolutions no matter what sticker the marketing put on them. HDMI didn’t even support it until v 2.1 which is not widely adopted yet.

31

I retract what I said earlier about having an AGP graphics card. That was another computer.

I remember that my motherboard has an analog VGA port because when I had this computer built I had a CRT. The motherboard on it is an MSI FM2-A75MA-E35 MS-7721 VER: 1.3. I also noticed the motherboard has an HDMI jack. I bought an HDMI cable and plugged it into my HDMI HDTV. However, I was unable to see any video signal from the computer on my HDTV screen. Maybe that is because the motherboard is somehow set up to output VGA video and not HDMI video ?

32

That motherboard should have HDMI and DVI also: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/FM2-A75MA-E35/Specification maybe there is a bios setting that disables it. It also is using the GPU built in to your processor, so depending on what processor you have, that could affect it.

33

@Russ
It’s getting time now to make a list of what you really have in your PC and what you want to do with it. Having Video connectors on your MoBo does not necessarily mean that it’s possible to get any video output from it. It just means that your MoBo depends on on-board video from your processor, and if your Processor does not have on-board video, then you need an external video card. I’m not entirely sure, but I think the Radeon HD 7560D means it’s an external video card and not baked into the CPU.

The Mobo Jon linked to is capable of delivering two video signals at the same time according to MSI.

AGP video cards were phased out starting as long ago as 2004 (Replaced by PCI-Express) It’s unlikely that a 10 year old PC still has an AGP video card.

What does the backside of your PC look like (I assume it’s a big box such as a mini-tower or Desktop)? Does it have a separate videocard, and does that videocard have multiple outputs? Where is your current monitor plugged in? In the Mobo, or in one of the expansion slots?

Do you already know in which direction you want to go? Dual monitor or high resolution? Or are you still trying to get an overview of the possibilities?

34

On a serious note,

My tired old eyes (late 60s) need reading glasses for anything to do with computers. I find my eyes and neck get very sore very quickly with large screens; probably a hang up from never having worn glasses in my youth.

I have two 24 inch screens, but mostly, one is turned off because of the same problem with big screens.

A single 24 or 27 inch monitor means I can see the whole screen, in focus, without too much head movement.
However:
I can’t multitask, so I only ever have one thing on a screen at once.
I have never played a computer game or facebooked.
If I ever want to watch a movie, etc. I watch it on the idiot box in a comfy chair.

If you are a bit younger and spent a lot of time with a computer, doing all sorts of stuff, go for whatever wizz-bang screen/s you can afford that will suit your computer and internet speed.

Cheers,

35

@paulvdh,
My computer is in a metal box that measures 18.0 cm wide by
36.5 cm tall by 43.2 cm front-to-back, outside dimensions.

In this photograph, see the 5 silver boxes and the parallel printer
port all aligned on the back edge of the motherboard?


Those are the I/O connectors built into the mobo.
The ones on the left side are a round 6-conductor DIN jack to plug
in the keyboard and two USB 3.0 ports. Just to the right of that
is the blue VGA jack above a white jack of 3 rows of 8 pins marked
DVI. Just to the right of that is a stack of two jacks, an HDMI
jack on the bottom and two USB jacks on the top. Just to the right of that is a pair of USB jacks with a piece of blue plastic showing.
Just to the right of that is a trio of connectors, two USB jacks on
the bottom and an RJ-45 jack to connect a Cat-5 ethernet cable to the NIC. Just to the right of that are a sextuplet of six jacks that I
suspect fit 1/8 inch phono plugs.

I have never used these six jacks. Instead I have a PCI 16-bit Soundblaster card with four 1/8 inch phono plugs on the bottom of the computer. Above that are 3 slots for more PIC cords.

I have also never used the DVI port or the HDMI port.

On my computer, the seven I/O connectors on the mobo. are aligned up and down on the left side of the back of my computer. In other words, the mobo. is mounted vertically and bolted to the left side of the back of the computer. The middle third of the back of the computer is an electric fan with 4 retaining screws in the corners. Horizontally I measure 10.4 cm from screw center to screw center. Vertically I measure 10.7 cm from screw center to screw center. This fan blows air out of the case.

Here is a 2-D image of these 7 I/O connectors.

Above this fan is the 430 W power supply with a vent that sucks
air into the case. Next to are an on/off rocker switch and the 115VAC power jack. Above it is a small toggle switch to switch it to 220VAC that I have never used since I am in the USA.

Yes, I am presently trying to grasp what I have learned from posters here and get an overview of the possibilities available to me. I am not sure I can afford any of them ATM.

@jmk, Did you try placing your monitor at a height where you can look directly at its center by looking straight ahead, with your line of vision completely horizontal – parallel to the floor–as you either sit or stand in front of it, as you prefer ? That is what I did in order to minimize neck discomfort while sitting. IMHO, that is the first thing you should do to stop any neck discomfort. The second is is to put keyboard on your knees as you sit. Even so, I can only sit for so many minutes before I have to get up and walk and stretch.
You can also improve your comfort level while sitting by putting a lumbar support cushion between your lower back and the seat back. I got mine from Bodyline Comfort Systems out of Jacksonville FL.
http://www.bodyline.com/back-huggar lumbar support cushion
Another issue is making sure your shoulders are over your hips at all times while you sit.

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@Russ,
My problem is with large or multiple screens. I’ll move my eyes, see the rim or outside my glasses, move my eyes back into the lens then move my head sideways to see the other screen or another part of a large screen. The continual moving of head and eyes creates soreness.

I’ve never adapted to wearing reading glasses…just another age related problem that sucks. :frowning_face:

EDIT: As I (not too clearly) explained above, I’m quite happy sitting in front of a single, not too large monitor, all day, and suffer no ill effects.

I only mentioned my dramas with monitors because many over 50’s don’t adapt well to reading glasses. If you are in that category, spend a couple of hours experiencing large and/or multiple monitors before spending money.

37

@jmk, Two or three years ago I bought the paperback book Give up Your Glasses For Good: Holistic Eyecare for the 21st Century by Nathan T. Oxenfeld. One of Oxenfeld’s principles is THOU SHALT NOT STRAIN. His book is a set of eye exercises to reduce, and hopefully eliminate altogether, the strain on all the muscles connected to your eyes. I highly recommend it.

By doing these exercises, I have minimized my dependence on reading glasses. I still use them only on occasion, and only during the winter when illuminance of my work area suffers. I keep eyeglasses at hand, but only use them when absolutely necessary.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

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If your monitor is too small then I would recommend a bigger one !
Did you really need someone to tell your that ?
Loads on ebay, PC World, Maplin and other online retailers.

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I bought an LG 32UK550-B 32 Inch 4K UHD specifically to use with KiCad as an external monitor on my Ubuntu XPS laptop. It’s absolutely dreamy. When I had to go into quarantine last year for two weeks as part of a cross-border trip I brought it with me, and it’s a good thing I didn’t have a girlfriend along because she would have been mad at how much time I spent gazing raptly at it.

Don’t cheap out on your gear. It may pain your pocketbook a bit but that will pass, the satisfaction of using good tools goes on and on.

2 Likes
40

Do you scale icons and text on you smallish 32" monitor?
3840 pixels wide on a 32" inch monitor results in a pitch of 0.179mm which is quite small. I still think the next size bigger monitor is better suited for that resolution.