Layout without schema - another use case

[debug]

Following on for this topic: Layout without schematic

Multiple designs to be manufactured in one panel by the vendor.
Copied/pasted the layouts from the projects to another Kicad project for the panel.

No schematic thus.

All is fine (DRC ok), except for filled zones that are not ground:

Ground filled zone are fine:

For filled zones that are not GND, kicad does not think the filled zone is the same
net as the traces:

Is there another way to fix this ? I could not find it and ended up replacing the non-ground filled zones using thick traces.

[paulvdh]

In KiCad it’s hardly possible to work on any project without a schematic, and KiCad has no (native) tools for panelization (although this can be done in various ways, there is even a plugin for it).

But apart from that. KiCad does support copy and paste of generated zones. Below a screenshot of a copy of several different power nets:

Your direct issue is probably that KiCad really likes to re-generate zone boundaries. By default it even does this automatically these days, and KiCad also likes to do this in various other occasions such as running DRC or during Gerber file creation. You can even (accidentally or not) set this as a (semi) permanent setting in KiCad, so it won’t ask you anymore whether you want to re-generate zone boundaries. (And I don’t know how to revert this setting).

A “real” solution is to use some external software for this. There are Gerber editors and tools that are specifically designed for panelization.

[debug]

Tried it with another design. Using copy paste of the layout to another project, the (not ground, no net) is copied fine. Wondering what’s the difference. The only difference i s that the other design (above) used traces in combination with a filled zone of the same net and this one doesn’t.

[RaptorUK]

@debug

Is there another way to fix this ? I could not find it and ended up replacing the non-ground filled zones using thick traces.

I think that you can assign the zone to a new Net then add the Pads to the same Net.

[debug]

I do not see an option to assign a net in pcbnew for traces and zones.The boards I try to add in one gerber have complex shapes, a tool to generate a panel will probably not do and V-cuts wont work. Combining several different boards in one gerber as one design saves a lot of costs for producing the boards. The separation cutting can be done after receipt of the boards. If there was an option to “copy with nets” and “paste with nets” in pcbnew to copy across projects, it would probably solve this use case.

[RaptorUK]

@debug

I do not see an option to assign a net in pcbnew for traces and zones.

Sorry, I didn’t explain correctly what I tested yesterday.

Add a footprint, select a pad and add that pad to a new net . . .

then you can add the zone and set it’s net to the new net just created . . .

and the same for any vias added . . .

[debug]

Weird, I do not see a <create_net> option.

[RaptorUK]

Bring up the pad properties and click here:

Type your new net name . . .

[paulvdh]

I also had trouble finding it, but indeed, when you start typing a new name in the “filter” entry box, the appears.

Aditionally, you can also create new nets with: PCB Editor / Inspect / Net Inspector, and then click on the plus in the lower left corner.

If you want more complicated things, then have a look at the Wire It Plugin.

[debug]

not sure it is because I use linux, but there is something funny going on. I can get to the new net but not directly. sometimes the focus moves to the net textbox to enter a net and sometimes (most often) it goes back to the pad name textbox. see video

[debug]

So, I figured it out, it only possible to get to the adding new net by:

1. Entering a digit in the pad name text box and keep holding down the key !
2. Then clicking the net drop down box

This is not very intuitive.

Application: KiCad PCB Editor x86_64 on x86_64

Version: 7.0.10-7.0.10~ubuntu23.10.1, release build

Libraries:
wxWidgets 3.2.2
FreeType 2.13.1
HarfBuzz 8.0.1
FontConfig 2.14.2
libcurl/8.2.1 OpenSSL/3.0.10 zlib/1.2.13 brotli/1.0.9 zstd/1.5.5 libidn2/2.3.4 libpsl/0.21.2 (+libidn2/2.3.3) libssh/0.10.5/openssl/zlib nghttp2/1.55.1 librtmp/2.3 OpenLDAP/2.6.6

Platform: Ubuntu 23.10, 64 bit, Little endian, wxGTK, ubuntu, wayland

Build Info:
Date: Dec 31 2023 13:35:26
wxWidgets: 3.2.2 (wchar_t,wx containers) GTK+ 3.24
Boost: 1.74.0
OCC: 7.6.3
Curl: 8.2.1
ngspice: 40
Compiler: GCC 13.2.0 with C++ ABI 1018

Build settings:
KICAD_SPICE=ON

[paulvdh]

Just type in a (non existing) net name. A semicolon is not valid as a net name so that does not work.

I do agree though that it is un-intuitive to type in a new net name in a box marked as “filter”.

Edit: I agree with RaptorUK’s remark (below) of paying the price of working without a schematic. It is possible, but that does not mean it is wise to attempt to do so. Drawing some wires in the schematic is much easier, and it also self documents what you are doing. On top of that you also get ERC for free.

[RaptorUK]

@debug

This is not very intuitive.

You pay the penalty by not having a schematic.

Personally I would create a schematic and have independently named Power and Ground nets for each circuit. They should then remain separate in the layout.

[debug]

what I mean with “not intuitive” is When I select a net or “no net” in the combo drop down and then type a character it should keep the focus on the (new) net drop down box. however, it jumps the focus back to the pad name box. This happens both with a project with a schematic and without and is not related to a character or semicolon, and not related to the name “filter” as well. As you can see in the video, what I tried was a board with a schematic and existing nets. I guess there is something in the code that moves the focus back to the pad name textbox after selection of the net name dropdown.

The only way to get to entering the new net is holding down a key in the pad tetxbox and then clicking the mouse on the net dropdown.

I’ll try this tomorrow again as it is close to midnight here and I may see ghosts or it’s the several cups of water.

[RaptorUK]

@debug

what I mean with “not intuitive” is When I select a net or “no net” in the combo drop down and then type a character it should keep the focus on the (new) net drop down box. however, it jumps the focus back to the pad name box.

I’m not getting this behaviour, I’m on Windows so maybe it is a Linux UI thing.

My point in my previous reply was really that if you had a schematic there would be no need to manually assign nets at all . . .

Hope you have a restful sleep.

[debug]

Yes, that what I thought, this could be Linux specific thing , if that so it may need a bug report.
Hope someone else with the same Linux environment as listed above, could confirm. Two is better than one to claim an issue.

[paulvdh]

I’m also running Linux (Mint 20.3 with XFCE) and I am seeing some unusual interaction in that entry box.

1. Click on the Net Name dropdown box.
2. Without further movement, type: “asdf” and it appears in the “search” filter.
3. Move the mouse down, as soon as it is over the search text, it gets selected (highlighted) and the cursor in the Pad Number starts blinking.
4. Type “bbbb”. Text is still entered in the “search filter”.
5. Press [Enter]. The “bbbb” is accepted as the new net name for that pad.
6. Press the Cancel button. The dialog closes, the pad name is back to “unconnected(…)”
7. PCB Editor / Inspect / Net Inspector. The and “bbbb” net still exist with a 0 pad count.
8. Select the bbbb net and delete it in the net inspector (Garbage can icon at the bottom).

[debug]

It was the water and the late hours, I need press a key when the drop down list is visible, not after selecting and item from the drop down. I think it would help to jump to entering the name for the net when the focus is still on the net drop down list instead of having the focus jump back to the textbox after selection of the net.
Or the drop down list could have an item “create new net” to select.