I’m looking for (paid) help (I don’t expect work for free)

[dogmaphobic]

For background. I’ve been fiddling with electronics since high school, some 30+ years ago. I’m used to designing simple/single sided PCB boards (chemical etching and later CNC tracing). Very long time the “E” Cad program user but a fully converted KiCad user. Recently, with the advent of all the PCB ordering services, I started getting more complex projects done but using mostly off-the-shelf “break out boards” and through-hole mounting them on these PCBs.

The problem with this approach is that the end result is far from compact. I then started looking into just building the whole circuit myself. In other words, I know enough about electronics to know I don’t know what I am doing when things get tough.

What I’m looking is for someone to help design (sch/pcb) for a project so I can have a basis to work from (learning by example). I’ve searched a zillion KiCad projects on GitHub but it seems the noise to signal ratio is way too high. There is a great deal of stuff that simply cannot work, which makes me believe they know even less than I do (which says something). The final goal is to have the board built and assembled by one of the services I mentioned above (JLCPCB, PCBway, etc.)

This diagram shows something I would like to “shrink”. I have it done using the process above, using all off-the-shelf boards but it uses a full 100x100mm board (plus an additional USB Hub board). The part that kills me is the USB hub. I can’t seem to find the parts for the example circuits I’ve found online and the parts that places like JLCPCB have in stock don’t seem to appear in any project I’ve found. For the board I’ve built, I used a 7x USB board I found on eBay. I simply desoldered one of the USB-A jacks and soldered a JST PH socket for the MCU (I used a Teensy. Way overkill but A) I had it, B) I could solder pins on the D-/D+ pads on its bottom.) This all can easily be handled by a much simpler MCU. An ATmega328P would handle it just fine, even at 8MHz (I’d rather keep everything at 3.3V). This is a telescope controller by the way. I haven’t pushed the firmware to GitHub yet because it needs a Windows driver (Ascom) and I suck at Windows (30 years Unix engineer).

By the way, the posted loads are the absolute max. I’ve rarely see it go beyond 4A total on the 12V input.

I figured, for someone with the proper expertise, this should be a piece of cake. For me, more like a bad enchilada.

Anybody?

TIA

[retiredfeline]

Maybe for working examples to learn from you should start at a site like Hackaday.io where makers describe their projects and people comment on them, then follow the link to Github or sometimes the PCB fab where projects are shared. That makes it more likely that the board has been actually built and works.

Anyway good luck with your project. Telescope huh? Astronomy was an interest of mine when younger.

[Docara]

Hi dogmapjobic,

Instead of paying someone for this why don’t you use us to help you learn?

I would suggest, at the very least, you try to produce the schematic yourself. This way you will have choices / options. You will either have a completed schematic you could give to someone to produce a PCB for you, or you will learn, say how to produce footprints etc you might need or finally have something you could post here.
This way there is something tangible which is a starting point. For the next stages.

This Schematic could be posted here for comment and then when people can see what you’re doing could also make suggestion on how best to proceed with component choice and PCB creation.

Doc

[BlackCoffee]

@dogmaphobic

This is a telescope controller by the way

There are many Kicad schematics/circuits online (including Telescope Control) but, as you most likely know, folks post unusable stuff and weeding through the mire can lead to… you know…

Transferring your 30 years of knowledge to a workable/usable Kicad-based project should Start with some very basic concepts to get familiar with Kicad, such as:
• Build a simple Schematic
• Build a simple PCB
• Create or download or use Kicad’s Symbols, Footprints and 3D-Model to achieve the above.

Rather than digging around for a Starting place, you can glean the most basic aspects from, this link to my more recent Astronomy gizmo that uses a Teensy4. That project has Nothing to do with the stuff you show, nor does it show the Steps of doing it but, the important part is getting familiar with Kicad and, at least this DSC project can help with that because it has the minimalist of Circuit/Parts and is Single-Side PCB. And, being related to Astronomy should keep you interested…

Thus, once you get through that concept, taking the next step(s) is not far away…

[dogmaphobic]

That was a great tip! I invariably bump into Hackaday and find amusing articles on Jet Propelled Bicycles and such. It never occurred to me to look for “normal” things. A simple search for “Buck Converter” produced a list of pertinent articles that are actually quite useful.

Yup, astronomy was a big interest of mine when I was younger. Now I have the time to actually pursue it

Thanks!

[dogmaphobic]

The question is not about learning KiCad. I would say I “mastered” it quite readily (emphasis on the quotes). Having spent over a decade slogging through Eagle Cad made it quite a refreshing experience (I still think Klingons wrote that thing). Most my projects, by using off-the-shelf “breakout boards”, imply the need to design new symbols, footprints and 3D files. All of which I have no issues with as these are things within my knowledge domain.

The issue is time. I can spend a month crawling there or I can have someone fly me there in a few hours. I can then spend the other 29+ days of that month doing things that are in my knowledge domain. I cannot assume I will learn electronic engineering in a month (and I certainly have no time to learn it properly). There is only so many hours in a day and too many projects I’m interested in. I have to make the most efficient use of time.

By “learning” I meant having the building blocks for other projects already done. For example, everything needs a power source, conversion and filtering. Having to reinvent the wheel is not time efficient (there should be an app for that—feed the requirements and it would spit out the schematics and most efficient board layout, using components you can actually find). Again using power source as an example, yes, I’ve found dozens upon dozens of projects showing it. It doesn’t mean I know what is appropriate or feasible. As an example, I have some idea what a capacitor does but I lack the knowledge to know why it does it (in the context of its need within a circuit). Nor the time to master it.

My background is software engineering. For a variety of reasons, I’ve accumulated knowledge in a rather eclectic collection of fields: physics, computer graphics, mechanical engineering, machining, etc. Now is time to play but we live in these feeble bodies with guaranteed expiration dates. We have to choose where to invest the time

Here is my current board for the above:

And an earlier version of the controller (there is an Intel NUC motherboard in that box along with the circuit).

[dogmaphobic]

That is cool! That is exactly what and how I’ve been doing things for years now. As I’ve explained above, my issue is not learning KiCad. It is the lack of knowledge to build complex circuits from scratch on my own. So, instead of socketing a Teensy (or a 5V buck converter, an USB hub, sensor breakout boards, etc.) the idea is to have it all on an actual, compact board.

At first I thought I could just copy and paste these things as there is an abundance of examples. In practice though, it’s not feasible as a lot of it is junk and I don’t have the knowhow to “fix” it or it may need adapting for different requirements, etc, which I lack the knowhow to do it on my own.

I guess what I am really asking is for help in the design process as in: here is what I need, can you design it? Hence the offer to pay for it. I can deal with the basics but not much beyond that.

This is how I had been doing before:

But I can be really lazy and just slap things into a protoboard:

Now I want to make it compact

[BlackCoffee]

@dogmaphobic

But I can be really lazy and just slap things into a protoboard:

I hear ya on that!

Thanks for clarification. This Kicad forum isn’t the place to get the most useful ‘Design’ help/guidance, though users here can/will provide some good help. You might consider other sites dedicated to circuit design as opposed to PCB design… They are too numerous to list/recommend…

That said, a starting point could be accomplished by searching for circuits of Open-Source products that offer their Circuits that work (in a similar fashion to Arduino offering circuits of their boards wherein many vendors and Users use them/enhance-them and re-brand them and/or integrate into their gizmo design.).

Another simple approach that may work for you is to Use the components/parts/boards you show and to ‘Re-Package’ them using Kicad to build Stackable, Shield-Based-plugin’s…etc.

For Example; You show devices (ESP…etc) on Protoboard and Relay module - these ‘Off-The-Shelf’ gizmo’s could be combined into a Stackable/Other scenario. Using Kicad and FreeCAD, they could be optimized as needed.

Screenshot below shows examples of Concept done in Kicad. Thus, minimal circuit design but requiring User configuration/concept work for Stacking/Packaging…

You could connector-ize them and, if knowing CAD, such as FreeCAD, you could combine them in the tool-chain for efficient work.

You can download Gerber files of the Open-source products and use the Gerbers in Kicad to build the complete design…

[dogmaphobic]

Yup, that’s the direction I seem to be going. The combination of how easy KiCad makes it and the proliferation of affordable offshore PCB services, makes it all quite approachable. I guess I got too ambitious wanting to integrate it all into single boards. I can indeed stack most everything above, which is basically what I did. What I really didn’t like were things like the USB connections (running actual USB cables consume a lot of volume within the enclosure, panel mount connectors are huge, etc.). That led me to use the way overkill Teensy just because it exposes its D+/D- pads while the other (Arduino style) boards don’t.

I’ve been lurking this forum for quite some time. The reason I posted the question here rather than elsewhere was because I found it quite refreshing when compared to other places. Frequently I end up at places like the Arduino forums during Google searches just to find trolls making it look like a political debate on Twitter. People here (in this forum) are just nice

This particular project is basically replicating an existing product using stuff I mostly have already. Yup, it would be a heck lot easier to just buy it but what’s the fun in that? (Not to mention they want $3,000 for it).

Thanks!

[dogmaphobic]

By the way, this thread is a great example of what I had in mind when I first posted this. It would be great to have a collection of “building blocks” and sort of build a circuit Lego style

[rdalek]

This may be a shot in the dark here. There just may not be available what you want. However, looking wouldn’t hurt much. Have you looked on github or other similar sites for circuits and Kicad files for what you want to accomplish? Example, I wanted a battery desulfator. I found a project on github I think that had the circuit, gerber files and even the Kicad files in case one wanted to adjust for larger coils or something. I found exactly what I was looking for, sent the gerber files off and then assembled everything when they come in. I do plan to adjust for larger coils one of these days but that won’t be hard to do at all since I have all the files.

You may just run up on something that is really close if not even better than what you are needing. If nothing else, close enough that you can adjust things and not have to reinvent the wheel to do it. Also, the original maker may include any improvements you have or fork the project with your improvements for others to use. After all, if you want something, odds are, someone else does too.

It’s just a thought.

[dogmaphobic]

Lol,

Not at all a shot in the dark. I’ve been scouring Github. Nothing specific but lots of pertinent parts. The issue as I described above is sorting out the signal from the (awful large amount of) noise. I even found someone who wrote a script to scrape every KiCad 6 project.

For instance, this repository is well put together for the few things it contains. The issue is that some things are not that simple to trace (PCB layout) and it would be great if we had the ability to have PCB hierarchies in the way we have schematic hierarchy pages (as described here).

Thanks!

[retiredfeline]

@dogmaphobic

PCB hierarchies

That’s going to be difficult because physical components introduce more variations than are present in abstract schematics. However one may regard the shield concept as a realisation of building block hardware. Have you considered building your projects as a set of shields around a core MCU board?

[dogmaphobic]

That’s true for more complex systems. “Shields” is sort of what I’ve been doing. That is, using Pololu, Adafruit, Sparkfun, etc. breakout boards and tying them together into a project. In the majority of the cases, this works just fine. But in cases where I want to make things compact, the wasted volume in using separate PCBs for everything becomes an issue. I guess I’m daydreaming in thinking I could have these breakout boards as sch/pcb “blocks” that could easily be stitched together into one board as opposed to physically separate boards. It’s way beyond me to attempt to assemble SMD boards on my own. Primarily because it’s not practical to source “one ofs” from various vendors, which makes shipping costs orders of magnitude greater than the components themselves. Instead I would rely on PCB services that offer assembly. But then you run into issues that they invariably don’t stock a lot of the parts used in these boards. Way too many variations. Oh well…

[marera]

Hi @dogmaphobic , interesting goal to migrate from breakouts to one compact pcb.
And that pcb should come populated and soldered, thus plug, program and play to you, right?
Just out of interest:
how many units are you aiming to produce?
I must admitt I did not read every single line in this thread, sorry if the answer is already there.

[paulvdh]

You can ask chatGTP to re-invent a brand new iteration of the wheel for you.

A big part of what you are asking for is a feature sometimes called “Design blocks”. This would let you quickly switch between using break-out boards, and implementing the circuit and schematic of a breakout board in a project. But this is not implemented (yet) in KiCad.

It’s also not a golden bullet. Someone would still have to put all those breakout boards into KiCad projects. For the ubiquitous Chinese LM2575 clone board this is probably done relatively quickly, but there are a gazillion of those breakout boards “out there”, and quite a bunch are already “Open Source / Hardware” or trivial to reverse-engineer. This then makes it a “library management issue” for the most part. Such a library would also be a nice start for discovering “interesting” parts for hobbyists.

As far as I know there is no copyright on PCB layout, but I think that Paul Stoffregen would not be entirely happy if his Teensys ended up in such a library. As far as I know he does not publish the EDA project, but just the schematic and PCB pinout.

Another issue is PCB density. You have used THT parts for everything on your PCB, while using an IC such as on the Teensy 4 will require a quite dense SMT PCB and at least 4 layers, and this is quite a big difference.

---

But more to the point.
In your particular project, your PCB is quite fully packed. Apparently you want to make the PCB smaller, but changing the breakout boards to their individual components is not likely to make your PCB smaller.
A more logical way would be to change all your discrete parts to SMT, and then put them under the breakout boards, or put parts on both sides of the PCB. But dual sided parts placement is an extra complication for manufacturing too.

Another option is to trade size for height by putting the circuit on two PCB’s.

Also, you write you want to trade your time for money. PCB design is a bit complicated on the communication part. There are many tradeoffs which require communication, and thus require time (which costs money) from both parties. Outsourcing PCB Assembly is also quite expensive for small production runs, as a lot of time is needed for acquiring the parts and setting up the machines.

It may also be a case of “premature optimization”. How many of these boards do you expect to sell? If it’s below some 50 to 100 boards, then doing the soldering yourself is still doable and just keeping the breakout boards (or at least keep the “high density” Teensy) is probably the best option. Maybe you can find somebody locally to do the soldering for you.

For hand-soldering, I also prefer SMT parts to THT parts. You don’t have to turn the PCB, no parts falling off, you don’t have to clip resistor leads, etc. SOT-23 and SMT resistors are much easier and quicker to solder then TO92 and THT resistors. (Fine pitch IC’s and BGA’s are a … “different category”). But I do highly recommend a decent stereo microscope (A few hundred EUR) for this. A stereo microscope does not only make placement and soldering easier, but because you can see much better what you are doing, it also improves soldering quality, and of course also visual inspection.

[BlackCoffee]

Amusing myself while drinking Coffee, I did a couple of things that, most likely, won’t be of interest if just wanting to Pay someone to do the work… But, I post this as FYI…

Many posted Circuits for the many Gizmo’s User may want to use for making Blocks of complete circuits (PCB and/or Schematic) - here’s one Example to Espressif ESP32 and result for one of the Downloaded Gerbers is shown below. Schematic is also downloadable. I looked at several sites to see most all provide Gerbers and several have Kicad Schematic/PCB for downloading.

Re: Paul Stoffregen (Teensy), he posts Kicad Files (shared by others so, I imagine he’s approved them) and could thus, confidently be used in a Block. I did Not look at the Posted files…

Re: Stereo-Microscope
I’ve bought perhaps 30 Video camera’s for testing (for different purposes) and dialed into a few that I can recommend at low-cost with good performance. One of my favorites (used in Video below).
I added a Focusable, Optical Loupe with Scale/Gradient and 3D-Printed a housing and Stand. The combination of this $10 Webcam and Optical Loupe/scale is super performing.
Unfortunately, I broke the 3D-Mount and Base so, I kluged Cardboard together for videoing… I did Not bother to adjust Focus (flimsy cardboard…) but, you’ll get the idea.
Using QuickTime, I can Zoom-in, in real-time while soldering/etc. With 27in monitor, It’s like being in a Movie Theater!

Re: Visual Inspection, using the above with Grated Scale, you can see it would easily show a Human Hair (Avg Thickness = 0.1mm) and was helpful in finding Short-Circuit caused by metal shard…
Camera slips into the 3D-Printed Housing below

Screenshots, Espressif

Gerber Example of Esprissif

TEENSY Files for Kicad

Video Inspection ($10 Camera and the$20 Loupe) Not Zoomed (file too big for Posting, Use your Imagination…)

[dogmaphobic]

Lol,

This post started with a plea for something I wasn’t even sure what. It soon became obvious it was a pipe dream. Nonetheless, I’ve learned a lot and I appreciate all the input. It amazes me what we can do today (as just DIYers at home) that would be impossible not too long ago.

Funny ChatGPT was mentioned. Last night, after reading the thread the thought did occur to me. One day, we should be able to feed ChatGPT with every data sheet in existence and have it come up with a circuit based on a textual description

Thanks everybody,

g

[hermit]

Engineering. Where dreams meet reality.

[muekno]

beside everything else there are some things I wonder about.

1. why do you need as many high power 12V outputs.3 Amps is a lot of power, I assume for motors. To lead so much power over a PCB is not so easy. In such cases you normally have a power supply for the electronic and a second one for the high power.
2. for what do you need as many USB ports, using this device as a USB hub too, is not the best joice in my opinion.
3. why is minimal place so important

I design PCB boards for my projects since same time an I was always quite happy combining my circuits and ready modules together i. example I use Arduino Nano, or ESP8266/32, nRFL24L01 and small DC-DC module with a fixed voltage of 5V and 3,3V 3A together. These modules are 20x16mm in size, cheap and reliable and ther are even smaler ones.

An other thing is I you want series, but as I understand it is just for a one time project.

The picture of you designed PCP looks fine for me so far, can’t see what problem you have with it.