Please Make Footprint UI Less Daunting

[jmk]

Hi @BrendaEM

The best way to work with Kicad is:
Decide which component you require and then find its data sheet.

Surf the kicad Footprint libraries to find the required footprint.

In this instance you have three choices.
Associate the required footprint with your selected component.
Write, memorize or minimize the chosen footprint required.

Open the symbol editor and find the required symbol.
In this case it is an N-channel FET with diode.

You have six choices… all the combinations. Match as required; according to data sheet and footprint. As @eelik mentioned, way above, the pin names are in numeric order. So, the one selected, is G=1, D=2, S=3

Place this symbol on your schematic and then edit its properties.

Give it a Ref.
Give it a value…IRL640A
Give it a footprint…click in the Value space, then on the books that appear in black at the end of that space, to navigate to the footprint you previously recorded.
Give it a data sheet (works like footprint but steers to the www)
Add as many more fields with as much information as you require, below those basic fields.
Adjust all the other Symbol Properties as desired.

All done… everything matches… no changes needed to symbols or footprints.

[JohnRob]

Would not the drain and source be connected to different pins on your part?

You could always download a symbol and footprint from one of the library sites like snapeda.com then add it to your personal library then you won’t have to worry about which symbol or footprint you are selecting from the Kicad Libraries. This is what I would do.

Also, when you are done and you print the gerbers (or whatever) you should physically place the part on the printout and verify the pinout is what you need. It sounds hokey but it has saved me a lot of time. Relays and transformers are the most often source of errors but anything with a specific pin sequence is worth the extra check. This is especially true if you have components on both sides of the board.

[BrendaEM]

It would seem that the MOSFET in the library is not pinned standard, then.,

[BrendaEM]

Your response with the Symbol Editor and the pin combinations looks very promising. Yes, I have the data sheet. I am trying to follow it but I cannot figure out how to get there from your instructions.

I know it must have very difficult to write this part of Kicad; unfortunately, it shows.

For instance: who would know what the difference is between Create-Footprint and New-Footprint? Although we can mouse over the and get balloon-help from the buttons, the Create-Footprint menu entry names should be changed to something like New Footprint Wizard, or Footprint Creator, or something like that that.

This same thing happens in the Symbol Editor. We have New-Library and Add-Library. This time, there is no balloon help from the other buttons, which don’t exist on the bar, unlike the other menuing situation. [I wondered if Add-Library might be like an import function. I took a look, but I’m not going to mess with it for now.]

Other things that complicate Kicad’s parts for new’ish user: Completely different menuing to accomplish similar functions; reused truncated/abdridged variations of menuing depending on where we launch. Ironically, there are both. At no time, do we get a clear sense where we are.

I don’t care for the choices we have, as far as Global or Project. For me, am important delineation is whether a part is custom or not, whether or not it’s unique to Kicad’s library or not. In other words: files I need for other Kicad installations.

Also, I would like the option of copy all used footprints with/in my Kicad drawing. When I updated to the last version of Kicad, I had to do rescues, which worked, but I also needed a few house of work to fix what had changed in Kicad.

A [Edit a Copy of This Part] button would make this so much easier.
A [Share This Part ] button would rock the Kicad community!

I will keep looking around the menus, to see if I can connect your gracious help to the program.

I am nearly done with my first Kicad circuit board. Changing the pinout was, for me, the most difficult non-intuitive part of Kicad. So, much so, that I actually reworked the board, to improve it, before coming back to deal with the issues I have with part modification and creation, which as you can see, I still haven’t done.

[That little island of missing ground-plane is screaming at me too. Though, it’s tough because this board has 2 isolated grounds. It should be hooked to ground-2. For my first Kicad board, I just wanted a through-hole board. As far as SI is concerned, well, I would be quite happy if the MOSFETS could be PWM’ed at 16KHz, without much operation in the linear region that would heat them.]

: ) ]

[BobZ]

I do not want to change my library settings to investigate what you are saying, but when you say “The MOSFET in the Library” I am not sure what MOSFET you are referring to. Your thinking is somewhat like saying that a car has a 4 cylinder engine. Yes, many cars do, but many do not. If the library symbol indicates “TO220 MOSFET” then any arrangement other than GDS is not the most common case. Is there a choice of pinouts? In theory there are 6 possible pinouts (neglecting the tab) and we may have symbols for all 6? That would not mean that you can find devices to conform to all of these options.

Using my text editor I opened my Transistor_FET.lib. My copy is 4 years old because I use mostly my own schematic library, and I do not bother downloading when I update KiCad. But I do not imagine the content has changed so much. This library appears to contain many FETs.

One general point: I do not think that KiCad or its libraries try to take the responsibility of correct device pinout. Specific devices such as LM324 in SO14 ought to be correct but even there I would want to check the datasheet. I think it is all “Caveat Emptor”. In this case it means that the user of any EDA package needs to insure the correctness of his or her own design.

[BrendaEM]

That’s all I want to do is change the pinout on my MOSFET. Why shouldn’t take anyone–even me, this long to learn how to do it–if I can accomplish most everything else.

I don’t want to use exclamation points, but they are implied. : )

[BobZ]

Were you trying to edit a symbol in the standard library without saving it to a custom library?

[BrendaEM]

The part I worked on, yesterday, is gone, or well at least unsearchable.

[eelik]

@BrendaEM

I don’t care for the choices we have, as far as Global or Project. For me, am important delineation is whether a part is custom or not, whether or not it’s unique to Kicad’s library or not. In other words: files I need for other Kicad installations.

If you want modified symbols and/or footprints, you need your own personal libraries which you have to create and arrange yourself. It’s that simple. In any EDA program it wouldn’t be a good strategy to just copy the parts without telling where they go. Depending on the program It may work until you update the program or remove and re-install or set up a new machine and install there.

You have been reluctant to spend time learning how to set up your own libraries. Therefore this has taken so long. You would have succeeded already if you would have given up insisting you have to do it in certain way.

I don’t disagree with you when you say that library editing is difficult. I can see and feel some usability problems myself. But still, it’s not overly difficult if you give up and let us guide you setting up your libraries. Basically, it’s nothing more than:

1. New Library.
2. Make it global so that it can be used in other projects, too.
3. Navigate to the symbol/footprint you want to edit.
4. Context menu → Copy.
5. Navigate to your new library.
6. Context menu on it → Paste.
7. Double click on the newly pasted item name to make sure it’s in the editor view.
8. Edit it.
9. Save.

If you don’t want to divide components to several libraries, you have to create the new library once for symbols and once for footprints. I don’t think it’s too much. After that you would repeat 3…9 for each component. It’s certainly more than “Edit a Copy”, but again, not too difficult or too much. The steps are logical, after all. Normal copy and paste operations, just like when you want to edit a copy of something in almost any software where you have items which you can copy and edit. Here you copy from some library and paste to some other library, nothing special in that. I think you have made it too difficult for you by trying to comprehend the whole UI at one go. Just follow the steps and forget the imperfect tooltips and wizards etc.

[mf_ibfeew]

The part I worked on, yesterday, is gone, or well at least unsearchable

First as I said before: try to be precise - which part?? a symbol / a footprint?

second: are you aware that there are different ways to modify a symbol? (that said: have you followed my advice and looked into the kicad-documentation)

1. modify an already placed symbol from the schematic:
   1.1. symbol properties dialog → Edit symbol
   this will edit only the selected symbol, it will be saved in the schematic, but not in any library. You will not find this modified symbol in any library later.
   1.2. symbol properties dialog → Edit library symbol
   this will edit the selected symbol in the library and change the library. If the library is read-only (normally all original libraries are installed as read-only), your modifications can’t be saved. Hence the suggestions of bob/paul/eelik … to work with a user-defined library.
   If you use this button you will change only the library-symbol, you need to update your schematic-symbol afterwards (to get the modifications into the schematic)
2. start the symbol-editor from the main kicad-manager, open a library and modify now a symbol. This is equivalent to option 1.2. above, so you should also work only with user-libraries (or a copy of an original library).

regarding your mosfet IRL640A:
If you don’t want the library from bob take the BUZ11 from library Transistor_FET. It has the correct footprint TO-220-3_Vertical (library Package_TO_SOT_THT) already assigned. This will also work for approximately 999,9% of currently available n-channel mosfets with TO220 case, I have not seen any other pin-assignment lately.

[BrendaEM]

I created a new Library, Global, Copied and Pasted a Symbol under that disclosure-triangle.

I think I have created the part, and changed the pinout, BUT

When the pinout is right on the footprint–it’s wrong on the schematic. (Part on Left Changed)

From Datasheet:

Looks right in Editor

Replaced Symbol Wong in schematic?

Wait! I think I know why.

If you place the symbol, it’s right. If you REPLACE the symbol, Kicad alters the pinout, with no warning.
I should drink more. : |

[BrendaEM]

Thank you all. It seems to have worked. When all seems well, I will share the part, somehow.

[paulvdh]

To go back to one of your first posts:

@BrendaEM

It doesn’t seem right that I would have to change the schematic symbol–because the physical package pinout is different.

This is quite common.
Take for example the ubiquitus atmega328. Page 2 of it’s datasheet shows at least 3 different pinouts (Are TQFP and MLF the same?)

[jmk]

Hi BrendaEM.

Thanks for the feedback from a newish user point of view. Most of the regular contributors to this forum have been using these sort of programs for over 30 years so occasionally take for granted really basic stuff.

The examples I gave above are in the kicad libraries. They do not need to be made, they are already there.
All you have to do is open your schematic in your project, go to the “Device” library and add the symbol highlighted in green with the red arrow.
Then double click on that symbol that is now on your schematic, click (as instructed) in the footprint line and navigate through the footprint section and click the green highlighted footprint library and footprint as shown.
This will give you the right symbol with the right footprint.
Next, delete the footprint and symbol you were using and replace the old symbol with the new. Finally, click “update PCB from schematic” inside “tools” and you will have the right footprint and the right symbol in your project.

[BrendaEM]

Thank you @jmk, @John_Pateman, @paulvdh, @BobZ, @eelik and @mf_ibfeew .

I do need to know how to fish–err create parts.

Today was a bad day, but I will upload the part when I am next on my laptop.
I remain convinced that the user interface dealing with part creation could be more straightforward, for the reasons already stated. Otherwise, Kicad is working pretty good. [I found a minor bug. I also thought of a helpful feature, but those are for other threads.I need to make sure I have the latest before I post any bugs, as 6.0 was a big change.]

In the future, Kicad would benefit with see a share button, with a ranking system as in CD-DB to make it, as easy as falling off a log to share a part.

[BobZ]

If you think of ideas about how that could be, please explain it carefully. Choice of terms matter; in KiCad we have symbols and footprints. I had to learn to use the word “tracks” instead of “traces” on a pcb. That one is less likely to cause confusion even if someone uses the wrong word.

Anyway, once you describe an idea, we can see if maybe it is a good idea, or maybe it will have significant drawbacks. I think that being open source is an advantage for KiCad, as there is a big opportunity for input from many users who have experience with other EDA software.

[BrendaEM]

I am looking at trying to even import a premade Teensy 4.1 footprint. I find it rare that a user interface is so opaque that I cannot even imagine to understand what the creator is trying to do, and that’s where I am.

I’ve used Kicad for at least 120 hours, now. I have found only a minor bug or two. It needs a hot-key for constrain (which would speed Kicad’s use). Except for the part and footprint Library, I am pretty happy with Kicad. In fact, I have shown it to several electronic and SI engineers in Silicon Valley, and have said good things about it : ) (Thank you)

I strongly suspect that Kicad’s code is quite sophisticated, but therefore complicated, which requires a lot of attention to detail. The problem likely comes with a myopic (nearsighted) attention to detail: it becomes difficult to see the big picture, as if the functionality was written from the back-end toward the front. I think that the programmers pulled off a great feat that their code has reached the top, but it appears a GUI designer should have met them just before that.

Let’s see…

1.) The Add Library and New Library thing should go away. Pick a metaphor and roll with it. I should think that most people have never encountered a UI decision like that. If you are adding to an existing opened library, please change legend on the menu.

2.) I tried both creating and adding a library for both project and global. A matrix of four tries to see what happens. It’s not easy to notice something as major as a custom part folder in the Save Footprint menu. For this, I felt something I have almost never felt for a user interface–even from the deepest bowels of the engineering software ghetto–frustration.

What I wanted: See that I was having difficulty, I wanted to soldier through the import footprint (into my project), and offer meaningful suggestions on how to make the process smoother.
What happened. I still may not have have my footprint in.

[Oddly, I had lesser of a problem with a Kicad version from a few years ago.]

I imported a footprint, and tried to save it, but I must save it–and yet I it’s not easy to notice the library names I have created, nor do I have idea where the main Kicad library is located. I see the library folder with my project folder, but what of it? Is it open? Okay it’s there, now what?

As far as the main Kicad library: if I want to move it to say, dropbox, well, where is it? In this case the metaphor of a Word processor spell check-file chooser, which shows the location, would be great. If it’s in xxxx folder, well then show me it is. This is a good way of handling paths, though Libre they have used the Window ap-data folders. (Please don’t get tripped up thinking that I have only used word-processors or anything like that.)

3.) If I add any footprint to a stock Kicad installation, surely I want those flagged and searchable, so, I know what to bring to a new machine/installation.

4.) Generally, and it might already be this way, but Kicad’s stock libraries should be unmodifiable/immutable, so an new, inept user like myself won’t mess things up.

5.) It would seem that the per-project libraries should be saved in the project folder, but it should be easy to copy/import all the parts from the user’s custom folder for use in a project, perhaps something like this:

Note: “Pretty” means very little to user as an extension. I fear for what came before it, though.

6.) (Edit) I created a IRL640A MOSFET symbol, which I want to share. It has the correct diode and pinout. It’s in the schematic, working, but from the Symbol Editor I cannot search for it, to export it, but it doesn’t show up. Though, for some reason, if I click on it in the schematic and edit it, I can export it.

~

Going further, an Cd-DB style thing so that users can upload, download, and rate parts–would have the people at Eagle and those who make online PCB creation tools–waking up in nightsweats. Please, make it easy to share symbols and footprints. It would be swell, if a complete package was 7zip’ed, With symbol, model, nomenclature, kit and caboodle. Is that a .pretty file. I don’t know.

Thank you for working on Kicad, and also reading this far.

[qu1ck]

I won’t comment on your UI remarks, I agree with the general sentiment that it’s far from ideal and intuitive.

@BrendaEM

As far as the main Kicad library: if I want to move it to say, dropbox, well, where is it?

You shouldn’t because as you pointed out

@BrendaEM

Generally, and it might already be this way, but Kicad’s stock libraries should be unmodifiable/immutable

They usually are if you install in default location (program files), on other systems they actually are (enforced by packaging systems).

Regarding paths, look at Preferences -> Configure Paths... in main kicad window. It’s similar to your screenshot and lists standard paths, you can add your own too.

@BrendaEM

Please, make it easy to share symbols and footprints. It would be swell, if a complete package was 7zip’ed, With symbol, model, nomenclature, kit and caboodle

Check out the plugin and content manager (bottom button on kicad main window). It’s not quite there yet in terms of ease of use, you still have to manually add installed libs to the global/project tables but it will be improved in next versions.

[straubm]

Feature requests are best filed in the bug tracker Issues · KiCad / KiCad Source Code / kicad · GitLab.

It is valuable to discuss them here on a broader scale but it does not help getting them (possibly) implemented.

[BrendaEM]

Thank you. The link is down. : O
I will check back later.