Junction Dot Conspiracy!

For the most part, everyone is using KiCad with some form of modern viewing monitor, and the Junction Dots are not a significant problem; but are instead annoying visual clutter for those that are used to schematics without them.

The benefit of not using Junction Dots is more readily apparent when using paper schematics in the field.

And no one ever crashed equipment worth millions of dollars into the moon because everyone uses metric in the science and engineering community. You can have all the rules you want, it only takes one to not follow or know them to cause problems. Intentional or unintentional. We have all overlooked a mistake because we saw what we expected and not what was there.

In high school they made me take typing because my handwriting was so bad. Back then, there was no numeral one on the keyboard. You used lower case L. 45 years later while writing code I slipped and used a lower case L for a one. Took me a while to figure out what had happened because the font on my machine made 1 and l look pretty damned close. Lower case L (l) and I (upper case i) on my machine look damned near the same now. Il. Doing it that way I can see the second is a few pixels taller with the font I’m using now.

Point is, dots remove the ambiguity and you don’t have to rely on someone else, or yourself, NEVER breaking a rule. But, choice. Do as you wish. The software gives you choice.

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People have crashed equipment worth millions of dollars into Mars, due to ground-based computer software which produced output in non-SI units of pound-force seconds instead of the SI units of newton-seconds specified in the contract between NASA and Lockheed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
I agree with hermit that you can have all the rules you want, it only takes one to not follow or know them to cause problems. Big problems.

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This issue started way back in the pre-Cad days when copies were made using a Blue Line machine. If you made a copy of a copy of a copy you would start to see + junctions start to blur and they could look like they
were supposed to be a dotted connection when they were not.

So the rule was No four way + connections. Move the wire to make 2 three way connections instead. That way you knew that any four way connections were not real.

And we are still arguing about it today.

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You answered me like I would be for not using dots. I have written that for my eyes (dots make reading circuits much easier) too. I have newer seen schematic without dots and normal crossing wires. Many years ago I seen some schematics when crossing without connection were done with some arc jumps, but don’t remember if at those schematics when wires were connected if there were dots or not.

In that discussion here it was not said, but I remember the same subject at this forum some time ago. As I remember probably Spring has written that he is used to schematic without dots and it is common in airplane technique. As you see a possible source of problems coming from not using dots it is surprising that in airplane schematics are without dots.
Even if I’m used to dots I think it is easier to generate ambiguity. Only one dot makes difference when in not dot technique the whole wire has to be wrongly positioned to change the meaning.

I’m just amusing myself thinking about the UI challenge of bringing back crossovers. You drag a wire towards the destination and when it crosses another wire the line goes hup! over the other wire. If you really want a junction you drag it back and it goes floop! on the wire. The Q key can also be used to do floop!

Next we need a 3D view to see the cute crossovers. We also must be balanced and implement display of crossunders for people who feel down on that day.

For people who are just boring, click a button and it’s back to dot mode. It’s just for entry and display, the netlist doesn’t change.

While we are at it how about a button to turn resistors wriggly?

Maybe put in wishlist for Kicad version 17? :crazy_face:

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As I stated, and please look at my profile, Junction Dots may very well seem to be fine while using KiCad on electronic viewing monitors; but they are a really big problem on old fashioned paper schematics used in the field. A significant industry figured this out.

In my trained line of work, not following every rule, is likely to get one hurt/dead; one tends to get very good at following every rule and procedure.

In KiCad the option is now there for those Silly Dots to be there or not; I’m a happy KiCad camper!

While I am currently happy with KiCad, some of the forum members comments seem to indicate that there is a lack of experience if/when their design could go off screen and onto paper.

My effort here is simply to advance the idea of overall quality design for every forum member.

Oh, and:
Never Trust the AutoRouter…

:cry:

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Not only a three dee view. Schematics and PCBs need to be editable in 3D design modes. Flatland must come to an end. Everything is xyz and so should be design tools for electronics as well.

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Actually, the handle is “Sprig” without the “n” in spring.

Today, 2019, maybe there can be made the case for paperless documents on Tablets with high resolution screens; but then there is also military light management…

@Piotr You don’t have to agree with my reasoned preference. I wish you the very best of luck in reading your schematic on your digital viewing monitor in the bright light of the desert during the peak of summer, or with winter snow on a clear sunning day in the peak of winter.

Wait, what???

Are you trying to imply that the Earth is not Flat?

I just knew I’d get a response of this sort. :sunglasses:

For now methinks we leave it at the ‘junction dot conspiracy’ topic. :wink:

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You are giving me nightmares. Some people where I work think it is a good idea to activate the crossover option in Altium. The result is totally awful. Viewing one of those schematics somewhat zoomed out, those crossovers look confusingly similar to junction dots. The crossover needs to be killed with fire!

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Sorry.
I had never done any letter/digit mistakes till 2004 when during an anaesthetization I probably had got oxygen deficiency. Since then among others it is hard to me to write the line without switching the consecutive letters and I don’t see that mistake (never before it happened to me - I didn’t understood how people can do such mistakes). Fortunately speller checker helps :slight_smile:

I know. I will use dots as I’m used to. But I understand that work without dots has its adwantages.
But in my opinion work with KiCad with dots just minimized is not good idea because it is possible that ‘+’ crossing would have invisible dot making you see not connection and PC see connection.
To work with KiCad without dots KiCad should have a flag switching to that mode and then crossing with connections would be impossible.

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I have yet to see any argument convincing me of the fact that junction dots are bad. Relying on them might be bad but having them in addition to avoiding 4 wire crossings really does not hurt at all.

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Yes, the Earth is flat. And the Moon is square. Well, sometimes rectangular.

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it only takes one to not follow or know them to cause problems. Big problems.

Brown M&M’s to the rescue!

(https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2012/02/14/146880432/the-truth-about-van-halen-and-those-brown-m-ms) … I tried to get a boss to add a rider in a contract where they would send us a big bag of M&Ms if they accepted the contract, for the same basic reason (although the context was different). He did not see the humor :frowning:

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They are a bad idea on paper schematics that are used in the field. 24/7/365. You don’t have to take my word for it, print some out and use them in the field for yourself.

You are a smart person. It won’t take you long to realize that one rubbed off dot, or one small drop of oil in exactly the wrong spot ,will cause it to take longer to troubleshoot the failure.

Having junction dots does not mean one would allow 4 wire joints! If you follow the rules you lay down and in addition include junction dots then you simply add one further safety feature to your printed out schematic.

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Just in case anyone is curious, I came across a partial document that my grandfather had, and that I have kept. It is a document from Eclipse Aviation, Bendix, N.J., USA, Form 626, Revised 2-40 (which I read as February 1940).

It has several small schematics on it, and none of them contain Junction Dots.

Curiously, it does have the crossover, similar to “Ω”, even though none of them violate the “No connections at “+” junction rule”.